Champion Changes

[Aikanaron]

Maybe some "nice" info for the champions here.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=268427

I personally really don't like the changes.. But we'll wait and see.

[calabam]

nowt nice about them , still see some classes completely overpowered but dont get touched .

[Tiermond]

Too be honest while they are a nerf, good champs will adapt. Mainly it means a champ in fervour will have to be careful not to take agro off the main tank. Whilst tanking, champs can't rely on staying in CB for the entire duration of a boss fight and will probably have to use Glory.
Above all champs will have to think about what they are doing, rather than going crazy on dps and hope the healing classes can keep them alive.

[calabam]

never tank in anything but glory , its gona be up to the tanks out there to work a little harder now and try and get the aggro of the squishy folk as the champs wont be crashing there AOE to the same effect . Seem ardour may need to be looked at again :shock:

[Raedwulf]

As my Lotro forum signature says, "Good players adapt; bad players whinge! Which are you?" I'm not in the slightest bit worried. I'll live with the changes when they turn up.

[Grimbos]

concerning Fervour:

While I'm not overly fond of the changes, I'll probably adapt and keep doing what champs do best, i.e. push out as much damage as possible, without jeopardising the group. if this means I will have to lessen my output when there's a proper tank about, so be it. If this means I will have to tank, I'll swap to either Glory or CB, and pull out my shield if needed.

Apparently the problem lies in the amount of damage we do vs. the penalty that should be associated with it. I'm on board with that, same as a hunter should not go in strength stance while in groups, and various other classes who should watch their burst output when fighting multiple or hard-hitting mobs. While we have no burst damage output, it's fairly easy to stay 2nd in aggro rating through clever use of Ebbing Ire and skill rotations. With this nerf, we're encouraged to watch our aggro, just as any other class needs to do when in a group.

However, unlike many other classes (except Hunters) we do not bring that many other aspects to group play that is not directly linked to our damage output. We'll probably have to start "stance-dancing" a bit more to fulfill our secondary role as off-tank/minstrel-guard, but in cases where champs will be competing with classes who can do equal damage, but also bring debuffs/CJ's/buffs/CC/healing/etc., I'm afraid we'll be drawing the short straw a lot more than we're used to.

all in all, I'll see how it works out, and if I don't like it, It'll be another incentive to get to work on my alts :D

[Raedwulf]

same as a hunter should not go in strength stance while in groups

Really? Why's that then? ;) Yes I know, please spare me. I don't play my Hunter very seriously, never have done. However, because I spend most of my time solo & in strength stance, I naturally tend to stay in strength when grouped. And you know what? I know how to manage aggro doing it. It's a different technique from endurance or precision, but it's perfectly doable, trust me. And the reason I rarely PUG any more? It's because of incompetent twats like Noerenn from Legioen & his GDN pal who try to lay down the law, displaying nothing but their own incompetence & ignorance (& lousy people skills, if it comes to that).

I'm perfectly well aware that strength is an inefficient dps / power ratio too. But, you know, I'm an analyst by nature & trade, and yet I loathe the idea of playing a game like this as though it were a spreadsheet. In most fights it simply doesn't matter, because it won't last long enough for me to run out of power (& anyway I can manage around that too), & I'm perfectly happy in strength stance. Plus there are some interesting little tricks you can pull off while doing it.

But most players, I fear, take your attitude - "can't use strength here". That, to me, is a sign of a limited playing style, & is exactly why so many players are whining (& I do mean whining, not complaining) about the forthcoming CHM changes. I don't anticipate any problems. Start slower, allow the GDN to build aggro, & if you do nick aggro when you don't mean to, drop to auto-attacks & dump aggro using Ire. What's so difficult about it all?

[Abarax]

Plus, to be honest. Good GRDs should always be keeping aggro (unless out-ranked by a WRD). If any CHM is able to take aggro off of me, I better be doing all I can to keep it before asking what's going on.

Basically, if someone can take aggro off of me, I want to know why. I'll immediately assume it's my problem, unless doing everything I can to keep it.

[Tiermond]

If a champ pulls agro from a guard then it's not the guards problem, the champ should know how to handle the situation.

[Derigar/Tarinas]

Two points. First the devs have explicitly stated that a champ going all out in fervour is supposed to be able to take aggro from any tanking class, although i question how accurate that is, thats their intention so we might see changes along thosde lines in the future (its supposedly why they have been reluctant to give large increases to the guardian).

Second - the easiest workaround is just to make use of ire to dump aggro on the tank (as i imagine the good champs do already), also just coordinate with the minstrel well - drop to ardour, get healed up/use pots, go back to fervour

[Raedwulf]

Yep, Tier, same thing as the hunter in strength. The thing is to consider the situation. Is the mob 3/4 dead? Then (one hopes!) the DPSer has probably pulled the mob to finish it, leaving the tank to build aggro on the next target. Has the tank taken a battering (especially if the DPSer hasn't)? Then the DPSer is probably trying to give the tank a breather, a chance for a little regen, healing, & for skills to reset. The trick here is that the DPSer should go easy on the skills once they have aggro, so that it's easy for the tank to take it back when they're ready. Is there another good reason why the DPSer has done it? I remember Ab & I, on my HNT, two-manning giants down in Giant Valley in the Trollshaws. He'd pull, I'd no more than Quickshot for the first few attacks. Then I'd deliberately steal aggro. When the giant runs towards me, I drop to auto-attacks; Ab takes the aggro back when he's halfway & drags him away again; rinse & repeat. The trick, similar to above, is to try to keep the aggro close to the tipping point & allow the other party to take the mob back, rather than stupidly building a "lead". The end result is a mob that wastes a lot of time running back & forth, not doing damage or using special skills. That one doesn't work on ranged mobs, of course, but the principle is what is important. Just because you're X class with Y skills, it doesn't mean that this & no other is what your job is. There are plenty of ways to play creatively, especially in conjunction with different classes & skillsets!

[Abarax]

Granted my Champ knowledge is lacking so fair play (not enough running out with Aig), but on aggro, unless something is a known issue, I always tend to blame myself until told otherwise.

..The Captain's fault :P


P.S: Raed I remember that with Elnar, though it took a little bit of training to get the balance right. Good tactic that! :)

[Derigar/Tarinas]

Just be careful the mob doesn't spend *too* much time running back and forward. Used to do a similiar trick with Deri and a hunter friend a long time ago using enrage. If the enemy spent too much time runniong back and forward without landing a hit, it just ended up reseting ;)

[Grimbos]

Really? Why's that then? ;) Yes I know, please spare me. I don't play my Hunter very seriously, never have done. However, because I spend most of my time solo & in strength stance, I naturally tend to stay in strength when grouped. And you know what? I know how to manage aggro doing it. It's a different technique from endurance or precision, but it's perfectly doable, trust me.

*snip

But most players, I fear, take your attitude - "can't use strength here". That, to me, is a sign of a limited playing style, & is exactly why so many players are whining (& I do mean whining, not complaining) about the forthcoming CHM changes. I don't anticipate any problems. Start slower, allow the GDN to build aggro, & if you do nick aggro when you don't mean to, drop to auto-attacks & dump aggro using Ire. What's so difficult about it all?

I'll admit I omitted adding that a hunter should not be in strength stance if he does not know how to handle his aggro, I by no means try to tell anyone else how to play their class, I think I know a bit about the champ, but I rarely find the time to play my hunter, as my kin needs another LM and a Mins, so they're my first priorities now, and I'm still learning to play those.

however, I do hope you make the distinction between people whining, and people voicing their concerns, for the latter is how my post was intended, and I think I refrained from any whines. I'm just generally worried by the general perception in the game like you just voiced about the strength stance, in other words, I hope we champions can prove to our fellows that we still are as useful as any other class.

[Raedwulf]

I by no means try to tell anyone else how to play their class...

...however, I do hope you make the distinction between people whining, and people voicing their concerns...

Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest the former. I just took the opportunity to make what I hoped was an interesting point. As to the latter, there aren't any whiners on RRU. I was referring to some of the drivelling nonsense & doom-saying on the LOTRO forum. And an awful lot of those posters definitely are whining! ;)

[Grimbos]

agreed!

[calabam]

calabam will continue to rip it up and blame everybody else but himself :P

[Tiermond]

calabam will continue to rip it up and blame everybody else but himself :P

Spoken like a true Champion

[Abarax]

Spoken like a true Champion

Or Calabam :P