The Rift Training Guide

[Raedwulf]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what we need to work on as a group in general. It should not (except for illustrative purposes) concern itself with raid-specific encounters. Please feel free to add any further suggestions or comments. This top post is a header to let you know what you can expect to find below; the substance of the training guide is in the succeeding posts. As usual, I reserve the right to tidy up responses in the interests of clarity. And eventually, much of what is written here may well end up in the Nimminas Companion guide, when I get around to it! Needless to say, this is always likely to remain a work in progress...

Communicaion
We have the TS channel but do we we make best use of it?

FS Maneuvers
We default to Noble Blood, but we could do better.

General Stuff
Anything else I can think of!

By Class
Things that you ought to be equipping or doing.

[Raedwulf]

Communication

Can now be found here (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7537#post7537) in stereo! Well, both the entirely independent new version, & most of the old, excised from here...

[Raedwulf]

Fellowship Manoeuvres

The beauty of Noble Blood is that if it goes wrong we get something, be it 2, 3, or 4B maneuvers. Much of the time, though, it's a waste, since we need neither the power nor the healing. "Adhoc round the clock" is a much more powerful & flexible tool for skilled players.

Straights were once the most powerful combinations in the game, and, as you all know, once you've 3 right, you got something & every following selection just enhances things even further. Even after they were nerfed in Moria, they remain at least as powerful as any other combination, far more flexible, & vastly more fun. There's nothing quite like pulling off a 6-straight adhoc... :)

The best way of practicing this is to go deed grinding on elites (troll killing in the Misty's for example) in company with a Burglar. Don't preset the maneuvers, don't preset the order that people enter in, don't worry about what colour you're taking. What you are aiming for is to get an instinctive feel for recognising & taking the next colour, & being able to quickly move to cancel & adjust if your choice comes in out of sequence. It doesn't take that long before you start getting the hang of this. When you then get back to raiding... All of a sudden you've got a whole lot more flexibility over the FSM you use. Alternatively, you can use Silirien's FSM Trainer (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457), of course!

In raids, you can, if you wish, set-up some kind of structure. One way to do it would be to nominate a Leader in each FS. This should be someone who can be relied upon to fire off the first colour quickly. It's then up to them to pick the FSM most appropriate to the needs of their group when it comes up. If you then designate the others as being melee or ranged picks, rather than 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc, the leader has the freedom to start on any colour he can / needs. Give each of the other members a sequence e.g. first / second melee / ranged. First Melee & First Ranged will, between them, take the 2nd & 3rd colours; Second Melee & Second Ranged will occupy slots 4 & 5. Which goes when depends entirely on what colour the leader selects. If Leader goes R / Y, then First Ranged is going to have to take the 2nd colour, if Leader is B / G, then it’ll be First Melee & so on round the clock (remembering that it doesn’t matter which way round the first two players decide to go, so long as everyone else follows).

Since a HNT is always capable of doing any colour, they’re the ideal class to take the final colour. GDN, WDN, CPT, & CHM should be assigned a Melee slot wherever possible (although G for GDNs is often useful), MNS & RNK are always Ranged, LMs & BRGs usually will be (though it’s not absolutely necessary). As I’ve already said, the Leader should be someone you can rely on to hit the first colour ASAP. We’ve only a couple of seconds or so to fit all six people in, so you don’t want the Leader dithering! The class of the Leader is pretty much unimportant, speed is essential. This is why I usually lead off, regardless of which alt I have out, when my groups are doing this. Finally, there is nothing to stop the Leader giving a different instruction at some point during a fight, if he feels the need e.g. “Group Two Maneuver Noble Blood”. Do it by name, & make sure you start learning which is which!

It also helps to know that a FSM is going to be coming, so BRG's, if you're setting one up, let your group know. Even GDNs can give a warning if they're trying to start one from their knockdown recovery skill (can't remember the name) - it may be only a split-second warning, but it's a split-second extra for people to start reacting, & the longer notice any class can give, the easier it is for everyone to add something to the manoeuvre. In any group these days, you should get plenty of opportunity to practice. Most classes have some way of triggering a FSM post-Moria, though none are so reliable as the BRG. The efficacy of this tactic has been well-proven by RRU in the last year & more, so you had better get practicing!! :Y

Oh, & if anyone wants to say something along the lines of “But we need to make sure the MNS is getting a Blue, especially if there’s a Noble Spirit summoned", the MNS is the last person who should be getting a spirit! The Spirit won’t save the MNS if they attract aggro, & often won’t get into the fight either, besides which an LM can make better use of the power. Give the spirit to an LM, or to someone that’ll actually get the damn thing fighting!

[Raedwulf]

General Stuff

First of all, the utterly, absolutely, blindingly bloody obvious. Before you go into a raid make sure you

Have checked your traits
Have repaired
Have enough healing / power pots...
...food...
...poison / fear / etc pots...
...travelling rations (if you're expecting to be summoned).
Have the right equipment on (Radiance armour, choice of LI's, etc)
And emptying your bags is probably a good idea too!


On an impromptu raid (e.g. turtle), it's fair enough if you're missing some of these. On a pre-arranged raid, it's inexcusable not to be properly sorted out in advance. You won't impress anyone; you may piss the Raid Leader off, and that is a bad idea! ;)

Raid Assist Targetting. Personally, I don’t like this – it does nothing to encourage intelligent or skillful play - & I would be happier if it wasn’t there. But it is, & we use it. So make sure you do!! And that’s about all that needs to be said.

Better communication aside, if you’re paying attention, you also get very good audio-visual clues as to what your companions are up to. This is particularly true of induction skills, where there is usually a fairly lengthy animation accompanied by a sound effect. If you can learn to associate at least your own animations with their actions, it means that if you can see / hear another player of the same class, you’ll know what they’re doing & this can also help reduce needless duplication of effort. If you can learn other classes' audio-visual cues too, so much the better.

Speaking of awareness, many people also need to work on their general awareness of what’s happening around us. In some cases, we’re pretty good at this; in other places we’re not. Let’s face it, LOTRO isn’t exactly difficult to play. Select your target (or RAT), spam away through your skills till the mob is dead. You don’t need to pay much attention to killing an NPC because mostly they just stand toe-to-toe with you. As long as your avatar is facing the mob, there’s no further need for you to pay much attention to it, so what’s to stop you looking around & making sure you know what’s happening elsewhere in the melee? The Left Mouse Button is your friend – spin that camera! There’ll be more on this in the By Class section…

Dying to succeed? Someone charging around madly, desperately trying to avoid a killing blow, or just shed aggro, is causing unnecessary on-screen confusion for everyone; is making it much harder for healers to help (presuming that they don’t wander out of range entirely); is probably making it impossible for off-tanks to rescue them; is not doing the things that their class is there for! A large part of military training is based on making the soldier look after his buddies first & foremost, rather than himself. It works too – more success, lower casualty rates. If anyone thinks this doesn’t apply in game, try a PUG raid, especially up in the Moors. There, where players first concern is often for themselves & their precious MvP stats, it only takes 2 or 3 people to panic an entire raid. I haven’t done a lot of MvP, but I’ve seen more than enough of that. Two or 3 people running quickly becomes 6 or 7, at which point if everyone doesn’t run, a decently organised opposition will mince whoever tried to stand & fight. If you want to succeed, work for the party first, yourself second, & it’ll come!

[Raedwulf]

By Class

I won’t have much to say here about the Raiding necessaries for some classes, because I don’t play them (or at least don't raid using them very much). So this section is not all my work! I’m sure others can add stuff - feel free to do so. Ultimately, I'll edit into this bit somewhere... ;)

Loremasters
First & most important, RTFM! Alright, Guide, not manual ;) - it's here (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=208). It's almost completely up-to-date & whilst it's a general guide to the class, not to raiding, there's an awful lot of information in there for you to mull over, & perhaps some things you've never considered.

You can do a fair amount of damage, but you know what? In a raid, it’s normally the last thing we care about, & the bottom of your priority list unless you've been told to trait red-line. Power-sharing, wound / disease removal, stunning & anti-stunning – these are your most important duties by far. Wounds can kill, diseases can be hugely debilitating, long stuns wreck the efficiency of the group. They all need to be dealt with promptly. I have been the Minstrel watching my power bar disappear down to zero, whilst the LM who should have been looking after me was running around doing heaven-knows-what with a full bar of power! That’s one LM that won’t be along on any of my raids for a very long time, & any LM who fails to be vigilant about these basic duties is not going to be a popular pick for the Raid Leaders. We always have a surfeit of LM’s to choose from, & no-one wants an incompetent along.

It’s a good idea to use your skills early & preventitively if you get the chance. +10% wound resistance means that much less chance of the minstrels risking aggro; +10% disease resistance means that much less chance of… well, a -200-and-some Vit disease is instantly going to knock 600+ morale off of someone’s health bar & that’ll have to be healed as well, once you wipe the disease. Likewise, don’t wait until someone is out of power or dying before you use Share the Power or Beacon of Hope. As soon as someone is missing enough of either to get full benefit from your skill, use it. They’re then full again & you’re on CD for your healing, or regenerating your power. With Blinding Flash, don’t be afraid of using as soon as the CD is expired. If you’ve only only one mob to look after, by all means stun it every 15s. That way, if it resists, you’ll have BF back again by the time the mob escapes the earlier stun. Assuming you're not on a heavy red trait-line, anyway!

You should routinely have Proof Against All Ills equipped in proper raids (ie. not the Watcher!). This not only gives you in-combat wound removal, it makes both that & Tend The Sick AoE effects. Dunadan Learning makes your anti-stun last 1m, or there's a rather useful Legacy on your Book that can provide a decent extension to duration. Think about whether you need one or both of them. There are mobs around who dish out long stuns, even up to 30s. You need to be using Word of Righteousness preventitively because, often, those very long stuns are not removable. We certainly do not want to see half the melee section of a raid asleep for the duration...

Deep Lore (improves your Power of Knowledge) is a very useful raid trait. At least one LM in a raid ought to have it. Going back to my opening line, if your damage output is a distant second to your other duties it means that red-line traits (Awareness of Body, Flame of Anor, Harmony With Nature, Master of Staff) are all replaceable. I keep HwN if at all possible, because you will inevitably do some damage & this gives you a big cut to power cost & induction time, but if you're being asked to run Ancient Master, or you need 3 or 4 Blues for the support effects (healing & the 4-Blue Air Lore bonus), something has to give.

In a raid, you may have to operate without a pet. If you are allowed to keep one active, please think twice about flying an eagle. Two or 3 LM’s with eagles up can make it next to impossible to see what the hell is going on! Your Raid Leader may explicitly bar you from using it, be warned! On the whole, the raven is probably the best raid pet (unless you're on full blue & have the Lurker available), and saves you a Legendary slot, too. If you do have the eagle, park the blasted thing out of the way somewhere. ;)

The only other thing to reiterate is that your observation of the whole melee & your communication with the rest of the raid are vitally important. In particular, make sure that you & your Champion(s) understand each other – see below.

Champions
Again, there's a guide. It may need a bit more tweaking, but read it (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209). Whether or not you are officially the off-tank, you are the player in the raid with most interest in making sure that mobs who should be safely stunned & out of the way actually are. To this end, make sure you have good communications with your LM’s (& BRGs to a lesser extent). If something gets where it shouldn’t, you need to get its attention, get it out of the way & stop attacking before the LM stuns it again. It is in your best interests and the LM’s to get this working since, otherwise, neither of you can use your AoE effectively.

If you can act pre-emptively, so much the better. And you’re one of the classes that ought not to need reminders about observation, but I’ll say it anyway – keep aware of what’s around you if you’re going to AoE. It’s much easier to move a mob out of the way, so that you don’t have to worry, but if there is one in the way… Not all of your AoE’s work all round – a little bit of intelligence will allow you to continue to use at least some of what you have available.

You are also the Minstrel's best friend. Off-tank or not, you’re probably best placed to rescue them from aggro, since GDNs are usually better off staying dealing with whatever they’ve currently got, & WDNs often already have a train of mobs in tow. Don’t be afraid of switching stances during a fight – Glory is immensely useful for tanking or a sudden rescue.

Minstrels
Like the Champions, your guide (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314) is a bit iffy, but at least semi up-to-date. It’s pretty hard for a Minstrel to make themselves unpopular, but do nothing bar being a healbot & people will quickly conclude you’re a bit of a waste of space. There has been the occasional fight, such as Narnulubat or the Balrog in the Rift, where you have precious little time for anything else. The rest of the time, don’t be lazy – contribute. Your buffs are the next most important talent here. Make sure you have Smooth Voice in your equipped traits since you can then get to Tier 3 Ballads and Anthems without needing to target any of the Enemy. Those anthems are important - -40% threat, and & +20 iCMR are not to be sniffed at. Alas for the nerfing of AotValar! Your buffs are, to all intents & purposes, passive healing. Increased AV for the party means less damage for them & less aggro for you. Get as much off as you can.

Don’t be afraid to use War-Speech. You won’t be able to stay in it, but there’s no reason why you shouldn’t start each fight in it. You can go round your W-S dependent skills once, maybe twice if you’re lucky, before switching it off to get full healing power. And if all else fails, there’s always just hitting something. You’ll probably never contribute much damage output, maybe no more than 6-8% of your fellowship’s total, but that’s no reason to be lazy. With an average of 2-3 Minstrels in a 12-man raid, & 4-6 in a full 24-man, that’s a fair few thousand pts of damage gone, if all the MNS decide they don’t have to bother fighting. Besides, it’s more involving & more *fun* hitting things! Just don’t waste much power on it & stay out of the way of AoE damage if you can.

Don't forget Call to Greatness either. Pre-Moria effects listed below, courtesy of Bino & Tarinas between them:

Burglar - +15% damage to positional attack skills. Surprise Strike is recovered every 5 seconds
Captain - Grants a defeat event. Grants the Battle-readied state every 5 seconds.
Champion - Grants a defeat event and 2 Fervor. Grants 1 Fervour every 5 seconds.
Guardian - +25% threat generation. Grants the Guardian's Ward effect every 5 seconds.
Hunter - +10% threat generation and grants 3 Focus. Grants 2 Focus every 5 seconds.
Lore-master - +3% chance for enemies to resist Blinding Flash. Recovers Blinding Flash every 5 seconds.
Minstrel - +10% to healing done. Recovers Chord of Salvation every 5 seconds.

As Bino correctly pointed out, it can only be used on your own fellowship members. Tari also had this to say (SOA):
"If I am forced to heal early as a minstrel and aggro three or four enemies, I will usually just take the hits as I know they won't be hitting me for long. If it's a little further in a fight and I've been forced to do a lot of healing and suddenly get multiple enemies after me, I'll hit Hammerhand then Song of Soothing to remove most of the enemies from myself. Feign Death is only for emergencies as you don't lose the aggro; the second you get back up, they will run for you again if you are still the highest on the aggro list, so it's only useful if you can lay still for 15-20 seconds and hope people are hitting the adds.

Something else worth thinking about, if both minstrels are healing a lot - if one hits SoS, then it is likely that all the enemies will go straight to the other minstrel. This is something I've had happen to me far too often and it's typically one of the reasons I am seen with aggro a lot. I don't use aggro reduction skills in the situations when I know they will just run to the other minstrel. Since I typically have more morale, I can take a few more hits and its easier for people to remove the aggro from the healers if the mobs are just attacking me as opposed to running all over the place! :p In other words, if you find yourself in this situation, it may be best to just let them carry on hitting both of you and shout out for help, rather than drop the aggro, get the other minstrel killed, and then have them all run back to you."

Hunters
You have a simple, straightforward task – shoot things (so simple that, shockingly, Nimminas have never got around to writing a Guide for you! :shock:). Apart from either being the RAT, or following the RAT, you’ve precious little to worry about. Therefore you have more time than almost anyone to be keeping your eyes & ears open for incoming trouble! It’s noticeable that our original 3 Raid Leaders were Hunters (& so was the 5th), and I don’t think that’s entirely coincidental either. So keep your eyes peeled & talk when you need to. Of course, if you should spot any poison whilst doing so, deal with it. The earlier any sort of debuff or DoT is removed, the less healing there is for the MNS in the long run.

Before Moria, Haleabor noted: In a Raid where you face big bosses it's easy to forget to use Merciful Shot (check!) as you can only use it when the target is below 50% health. So you spend 5 minutes not using it...it's easy to forget once you can...and it does a lot of damage, especially on a crit (c900-1000)

Hunters don't use traps enough...I know it's not as effective as LM root or tar...but it still stops 1 melee Mob for 10 secs joining the fight...could mean all the difference. Now I'm as guilty as everyone else on this..in fact I can't even remember where my trap skill is on my toolbar.... and maybe there's some "not cool" reason why we don't do it. Either way I think we should think about using it again. [NB: Post-Moria, you have the Combat Traps trait, of course]

Guardians
A bit like the Hunters, you have a pretty simple function. Whether you’re the main- or off- tank, or just picking up what comes along, you’ll often have ample time to look around. In a raid, it’s probably better not to have Vexing Blade traited, & that saves you worrying about whether you’re hitting something you shouldn’t be. Also bear in mind Challenge is an AoE effect and, as far as I’m aware, is also capable of breaking mezzes.

Lastly, think before you valiantly charge through the party to rescue someone on the other side – if you drag a mob doing AoE damage through the middle of the group, no-one’s going to applaud your efforts! It’s probably better to let the CHM, WDN, or CPT do any rescuing, definitely so if you are the Main Tank. More often than not, you’ll have the attention of the biggest, nastiest mobs on hand. It’s better for the raid if they are kept as stationary as possible, so that everyone knows exactly where they are. The Guardian's Guide (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396) has not been touched since Moria, but the Tanking Guide (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398) has!

If you are Main Tanking, the most important thing for you to remember is to stand still as much as you possibly can. No, it isn't always possible. Lately, Turbine seem to have a fad for giving boss mobs AoE hotspot attacks (poison clouds, acid puddles, & so on). Nevertheless, the more you move, the more the nastiest boss in the fight moves, the more confusion & chaos reigns. By moving excessively, you make it far harder for adds to be quickly disposed of; you make it harder for the healers to keep everyone in range; you may cause huge amounts of damage to your fellows who thought they were stood safely out of the way; you make the fight much more difficult than it need be!

Captains
I freely admit to not knowing a great deal about how Captains. I’m not going to comment on buffs – you know their merits better than I do. Fear removal; like wound, disease, & poison; is best done as early as possible, & with a whopping +20% bonus resistance is definitely one to use preventitively when facing mobs such as Angmarim who use fear a lot. Lastly, the standard “Keep your eyes open” – the Champions are the first ones to pick up loose trouble, but you’re next in line, not spare GDN’s! If you’re unaware, you’ll be unable to help.

From Arakasi (again this is from SoA days):
Your job is buff, tank and heal. Our DPS is a joke, so no point in mentioning it. Picking aggro off a squishy, while the Guardians and Champions deal with the rest. Add the occasional heal.

Banners
When there is only 1 Captain in a fellowship, use your traited hope banner.
When there are 2 Captains in one fellowship, agree in advance who will slot a different banner. The Captain who will take a different banner can then slot an improved Banner of War or Victory.

Resurrections
We have 2 skills to rez people; Cry of Vengeance and Escape from Darkness. As with any class that can rez in combat, you are not supposed to rez someone unless asked by the raid leader. Cry of Vengeance however, is not a skill that allows for this approval. The short window in which it can be used, gives you only one option: use it when it triggers. If you're popping it, shout in TS or raid chat, so that not two captains use CoV on one death.

Buffs
Depending on class, use the appropriate buff. Some Lore-masters and Minstrels prefer the ICPR buff, others the Crit chance buff. Be sure to ask these types of classes what they prefer. As for the rest, a tank usually wants the Parry chance buff, DPS will want the Crit chance.
IDOME and the +5% morale buff go without saying, have them up.

Shield-brother
Shield Brother gives us an additional attack, which does low damage, but heals your shield brother. It does burn power, so be careful with it. The main use of Shield Brother are the +25% damage/heal buffs. I find these most useful on a tank or minstrel, those who usually take a lot of damage. By contrast, Evelynn (Joerg) remarks: "I prefer to use the 'http://lotro-wiki.com/images/thumb/3/3d/To_Arms-icon.png/18px-To_Arms-icon.png (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Image:To_Arms-icon.png) To Arms' Buff on DPS classes (Hunters are usually my choice for shield brother because of that)."

Fear removal
Very important, but something to note for non-captains: we have a 30s cooldown! We cannot use it all the time, like the Lore-master.



Legendary traits

In Defence Of Middle Earth: If you don't have this slotted, shame on you!
Oathbreaker's Shame: If you choose to slot this, make sure you use it on the right NPC. Think of a Troll-Keeper, or something else that has to go down QUICK.
Shield of the Dunedain: This is my choice, it gives a -75% on all incoming damage, which is very useful in a tight spot.
Defy Corruption: Improves the resurrection skills. Escape from Darkness will revive someone with more Morale and Power, Cry of Vengeance can rez 2 targets now.
Burglars
Says Derigar pre-Moria: Just a ramble off the top of my head, so let me know if you want me to mention other areas, or go over material in more depth

Burglars should not be doing DPS unless they have nothing else to do. Keeping tricks on all active enemies should be your main priority with considerations for using riddle/enrage/provoke for agro management and FM's for emergency power/morale being a close second. AoE DiTE can be useful as the opening trick when a group of 3 or 4 is pulled towards the group (just remember it only hits 3 people max). Follow up with reveal weakness on the RAT (no excuse for this skill to not be used whenever its not on CD) and then unless the target is being kited, switch to CD or disable based on your judgement (want to kill the target faster, or lower strain on the minstrel?)

Burglars are very low down on the priority list for power (to be honest, unless they are specifically required for a tactic, i'd place them joint last) and seeing as how the crit chain drains power extremely fast (especially if you duel-wield daggers), you can run out of power faster than just about any other class. You don't want your power to drop below half when just using offensive skills as enemies are capable of draining power, or things can rapidly go downhill and you'll need to be using tricks/riddle/FM's continuously to help turn the tide.

Traited riddle is a must for basically all aspects of burglar play, the others are open to debate a bit. I'd highly recommend at least one traited trick, but two or three can be very useful for aiding the group. Given the choice, i'd use the following under these conditions:
- DiTE if you know you're going to be pulling enemies in small groups a lot
- Enrage if you want the option of forcing ranged enemies into melee, which has its uses (orcs at fumeroles or the drakes by the wall before Zogtark both instantly come to mind)
- Disable if you are going to be fighting a strong boss or singular enemy (less essential as this skill is powerful even untraited)
- CD if you want to kill the enemy as quickly as possible.

Personally, i'd go for DiTE and enrage/disable, but it should be adjusted based on the area you are fighting in. For the rest of the traits, the stealth based ones are not overly useful in raids as you'll likely be just running around with mischief on the whole time anyway.

As for legendary traits, exposed throat is a must, but be careful about using this skill on tough bosses, as you may need to use a FM later but find the immunity still active. Second legendary trait can be anything, as they are all fairly unimpressive. I'd advise against stick and move just because you shouldn't care about your crit chain and equally won't be getting attacked too often in a raid for it to actually make a difference.

Adds Tiermond, also pre-Moria: Don't forget provoke, rarely used in a raid but when a champ is tanking can help them keep agro, just be very sure who the boss is targetting before using. Traited DitE is a must when fighting things like pale folk, but it will break stuns so need to be careful. I like CD - most melee classes get skills opened up by crits and with CD on a boss will almost permanently have their crit chain available for use. Disable is a must for when something is being off tanked and you are more concerned about mitigating damage.

Wardens
Well, there's only bloody Rhy, so he can look after himself!

Runekeepers
As above, except it's Sil!

[Derigar/Tarinas]

For clarity, feel free to copy and paste (editing however you see fit) this into your above post and i'll delete this post. Just a ramble off the top of my head, so let me know if you want me to mention other areas, or go over material in more depth

Burglars should not be doing DPS unless they have nothing else to do. Keeping tricks on all active enemies should be your main priority with considerations for using riddle/enrage/provoke for agro management and FM's for emergency power/morale being a close second. AoE DiTE can be useful as the opening trick when a group of 3 or 4 is pulled towards the group (just remember it only hits 3 people max). Follow up with reveal weakness on the RAT (no excuse for this skill to not be used whenever its not on CD) and then unless the target is being kited, switch to CD or disable based on your judgement (want to kill the target faster, or lower strain on the minstrel?)

Burglars are very low down on the priority list for power (to be honest, unless they are specifically required for a tactic, i'd place them joint last) and seeing as how the crit chain drains power extremely fast (especially if you duel-wield daggers), you can run out of power faster than just about any other class. You don't want your power to drop below half when just using offensive skills as enemies are capable of draining power, or things can rapidly go downhill and you'll need to be using tricks/riddle/FM's continuously to help turn the tide.

Traited riddle is a must for basically all aspects of burglar play, the others are open to debate a bit. I'd highly recommend at least one traited trick, but two or three can be very useful for aiding the group. Given the choice, i'd use the following under these conditions:
- DiTE if you know you're going to be pulling enemies in small groups a lot
- Enrage if you want the option of forcing ranged enemies into melee, which has its uses (orcs at fumeroles or the drakes by the wall before Zogtark both instantly come to mind)
- Disable if you are going to be fighting a strong boss or singular enemy (less essential as this skill is powerful even untraited)
- CD if you want to kill the enemy as quickly as possible.

Personally, i'd go for DiTE and enrage/disable, but it should be adjusted based on the area you are fighting in. For the rest of the traits, the stealth based ones are not overly useful in raids as you'll likely be just running around with mischief on the whole time anyway.

As for legendary traits, exposed throat is a must, but be careful about using this skill on tough bosses, as you may need to use a FM later but find the immunity still active. Second legendary trait can be anything, as they are all fairly unimpressive. I'd advise against stick and move just because you shouldn't care about your crit chain and equally won't be getting attacked too often in a raid for it to actually make a difference.

[Tiermond]

Don't forget provoke, rarely used in a raid but when a champ is tanking can help them keep agro, just be very sure who the boss is targetting before using.
Traited dite is a must when fighting things like pale folk, but it will break stuns so need to be careful.
I like CD, most melee classes get skills opened up by crits and with CD on a boss will almost permanently have their crit chain available for use.
Disable is a must for when something is being off tanked and you are more concerned about mitigating damage.

As for guardians I'd disagree with not using the harrasser trait I love anything that gives my guard aoe damage makes getting agro much easier. If mezzed/rooted mobs are so close to what you are tanking that they get hit by traited vexing blow then odds are someone else in the group will break the mez/root anyway so better its the guardian hitting them and they have some agro on it already. Of course better still to move the mob your tanking away from the other mobs but things dont always go to plan.

[Bino]

I havent read it all yet, just the part about the minstrels, and I must say: finally!
Anytime I'm in a group and I switch on the War-Speech, there is always someone wise who starts shouting "what the hell... why do you... do you want to get us wiped..." or various variations on the topic.
So I'm glad you see it that way and I completely agree, minstrels should participate on the fight. (It's more fun anyway ;)

There are some problems though.
The most powerful 'attack skills' are AoE, so one has to be really careful.
And as you have pointed out, the power is another issue here. What might seems like a lazy hobbit (man, woman, elf, whatever) @ss, could actually be an active effort to save the power. There's nothing more embarrasing then to start like a big brave "For Shire!!!" warrior attacking everything in your sight and in the end, when your healing is really needed, you simply can sit down, light up a cigar and watch your friends dying because you have just ran out of the power. But I guess here comes the LM's part.

I'd say if you dont want to attack the mobs, using all those buffs is obligatory.
1.tier Song of Vigour,
2.tier Song of Balance,
3.tier Ballad of War (damage), Ballad of Unshakeable Will(fear resist), if you see a fire then Ballad of Flame
4.tier Anthem of the Free Peoples(!!!)

If you get aggro use Song of Soothing immediately, and Anthem of Compassion would help as well.
What wont hurt is to use Strings (dont know the exact name, but they're very cheap on AH) - they decrease healing threat

Now and then I use a Song of Aid on LM, or Champion (if he's tanking and struggles to get aggro), but I'm not sure whether or not it could change the battle-ground situation. More likely not.

One question, minstrels can use Fear skill (Cry of the Valar). The mob just runs away (which is nice) and after a few (I think 10 or 15?) seconds comes back. He's suppose to come alone, but sometimes... sometimes he brings some of his ugly friends with him. I think (and that's actually my question) it happens only if you use an Echoes of Batttle skill (those funny scroopy flying-swords) on him first.

[Derigar/Tarinas]

if i am forced to heal early as a minstrel and agro three or four enemies, i will usually just take the hits as i know they won't be hitting me for long. If its a little further in a fight and i've been forced to do a lot of healing and suddenly get multiple enemies after me, i'll hit hammerhand then song of soothing to remove most of the enemies from myself. Feign death is only for emergencies as you don't lose the agro; the second you get back up they will run for you again if you are still the highest on the agro list, so only useful if you can lay still for 15-20 seconds and hope people are hitting the adds. Also worth thinking about, if both minstrels are healing a lot, if one hits song of soothing, then its likely that all the enemies will go straight to the other minstrel (something i've seen happen to me far too often and typically one of the reasons i am seen with agro a lot, i don't use agro reduction skills in the situations when i know they will just run to the other minstrel, i typically have more morale so can take a few more hits and its easier for people to remove the agro from the healers if they are just attacking me as opposed to running all over the place :P), so it may be best in this case to just let them carry on hitting both of you and shout out for help, rather than drop the agro, get the other minstrel killed, then have them all run back to you

[Raedwulf]

I think the way that Fear works for any class that has it is that it has an AoE aggro effect when it expires. Therefore if your Feared mob is close to another group of mobs, they may come back with him; if he's not they won't. It's nothing to do whatever skill you have on him first.

As to the power issue, it's rare you'll get round your W-S skills more than once. The CD on most of them is simply too long. If you go round once, then drop to auto-attack (if something doing non-AoE damage is available & you're happy to close up) with the occasional damage ballad if you can spare time from keeping the buffs up, you'll spend very little power, but enough to start using your regen. There is absolutely no point in any class standing around not using skills with a full power bar. You should always try to use a little, just to get the benefit of your regen.

[Haleabor]

A comment on Hunters

In a Raid where you face big bosses it's easy to forget to use Merciful Shot (check!) as you can only use it when the target is below 50% health. So you spend 5 minutes not using it...it's easy to forget once you can...and it does a lot of damage, especially on a crit (c900-1000)

Hunters don't use traps enough...I know it's not as effective as LM root or tar...but it still stops 1 melee MOB for 10 secs joining the fight...could mean all the difference. Now I'm as guilty as everyone else on this..in fact I can't even remember where my trap skill is on my toolbar.... and maybe there's some "not cool" reason why we don't do it. Either way I think we should think about using it again.

A really "noob" comment on Minstrels

We have Call to Greatness which particularly on Guardians gives some useful boosts short term...yet we never talk about using it.

We aslo have a FM boost, although I don't know what it does or when to use it (surely it must be during/after the FM initiates???? Comments from the better Minstrels appreciated

[Raedwulf]

Good comment on the traps, Hal, & on Merciful Shot. Guilty on both counts, though to be fair Elnar is sharing last place with Eik in the priority list these days. When he is out it's usually solo & shooting every flat before it gets close, so neither skill really needed. I'd have made a better job of the Hunter comments if I'd actually finished writing the guide for them - it's amazing how much you learn doing that, not least because you have to read through your skill lists to make sure you're not missing something obvious.

As to the Minstrels, no they're not noob remarks, they're actually good questions, because both of those skills are pretty obscure & rarely used for most MNS, I imagine. Certainly I'm not entirely sure what they do, even though Tari & I did a little spamming of Greatness (I think it was) back & forth a few weeks ago. We'll have plenty of spawns around tonight, & 3 MNS again, I presume, so I think we may just deliberately incorporate these into tonight's run to find out how to best make use of them.

[Derigar/Tarinas]

Call to greatness does a different thing based on which class it is cast on, with a 15 second duration. Typically i consider the following the best three effects, although i admit i often forget to use this skill

LM: -3% resist to blinding flash, blinding flash CD set to 5 seconds
Minstrel: +10% healing output, chord of salvation CD set to 5 seconds
Guardian: +25% threat generation, guardian ward effect every 5 seconds

if you see a need to heal a bit more potently or the need to fire off the chord of salvation more rapidly, use on yourself as the cooldown is low enough that you shouldn't need to think about it.

As for call to the fellowship, i'm not certain, but i think it can be used at any point up until the FS move can no longer be contributed to. It increases the effect of all colours by 10%, but needs coordination with a burglar to be of most use, but really, 10% isn't a great deal for a one time one shot effect, as opposed to say the +10% healing boost which can be made use of about 7 or 8 times.

[Bino]

Well, effects of Call to greatness are:

Champion : Defeat response, 2 Fervour every 5 seconds
Guardian : +25% Threat
Lore-master : Blinding Flash refresh every 5 seconds
Minstrel : +10% Healing, Chord of Salvation reset every 5 seconds
Hunter : -15% Threat, 1 Focus every 5 secs
Captain : Defeat response every 5 secs
Burglar : +15 damage to positional attack

You can cast it on yourself, but it can be cast only in your own fellowship.

[Derigar/Tarinas]

Curious why you'd go to the effort of posting the effects of the various call to greatness effects, but leave off half the effects? Anyway, here is the full list

Burglar - +15% damage to positional attack skills. Surprise Strike is recovered every 5 seconds
Captain - Grants a defeat event. Grants the Battle-readied state every 5 seconds.
Champion - Grants a defeat event and 2 Fervor. Grants 1 Fervour every 5 seconds.
Guardian - +25% threat generation. Grants the Guardian's Ward effect every 5 seconds.
Hunter - +10% threat generation and grants 3 Focus. Grants 2 Focus every 5 seconds.
Lore-master - +3% chance for enemies to resist Blinding Flash. Recovers Blinding Flash every 5 seconds.
Minstrel - +10% to healing done. Recovers Chord of Salvation every 5 seconds.

As Bino correctly pointed out, it can only be used on your own fellowship members

[Bino]

oh, thanks for filling the gaps, it looks even more interesting than before. ;)

[Derigar/Tarinas]

Fairly obviously, some are a lot more powerful effects than others. Giving burglars a bit more DPS is not a huge benefit, neither is the hunter buff as they are often full of focus anyway. However, i'd be hard pressed to find a guardian who wouldn't sing your praises for more threat generation, or a LM who could use their blinding flash almost at will. Of course, this is one of those skills that would require a bit of communication between minstrels to work most effectively (and to be honest, we never communicate amazingly well to each other at the best of times).

[Tiermond]

Was in the rift with a PUG yesterday (cleared to Furz with no wipes quite amazing for a PUG), only one loremaster so being short of stuns the burglar used the riddle/hips trick on the slave masters to seperate them from the rest of the mobs and kill the slave master first. Probably not needed when you have a lot of loremasters but potentially a useful alternative if short of stuns.

[Rhyaehar]

As a relatively new Captain, I'll try to clarify your job. Nyeanna and Bothorn, feel free to clarify/correct where needed.

Captains
Your job is buff, tank and heal. Our DPS is a joke, so no point in mentioning it. Picking aggro off a squishy, while the Guardians and Champions deal with the rest. Add the occasional heal.

Banners
When there is only 1 Captain in a fellowship, use your traited hope banner.
When there are 2 Captains in one fellowship, agree in advance who will slot a different banner. The Captain who will take a different banner can then slot an improved Banner of War or Victory.

Resurrections
We have 2 skills to rez people; Cry of Vengeance and Escape from Darkness. As with any class that can rez in combat, you are not supposed to rez someone unless asked by the raid leader. Cry of Vengeance however, is not a skill that allows for this approval. The short window in which it can be used, gives you only one option: use it when it triggers. If you're popping it, shout in TS or raid chat, so that not two captains use CoV on one death.

Buffs
Depending on class, use the appropriate buff. Some Lore-masters and Minstrels prefer the ICPR buff, others the Crit chance buff. Be sure to ask these types of classes what they prefer. As for the rest, a tank usually wants the Parry chance buff, DPS will want the Crit chance.
IDOME and the +5% morale buff go without saying, have them up.

Shield-brother
Shield Brother gives us an additional attack, which does low damage, but heals your shield brother. It does burn power, so be careful with it. The main use of Shield Brother are the +25% damage/heal buffs. I find these most useful on a tank or minstrel, those who usually take a lot of damage.

Fear removal
Very important, but something to note for non-captains: we have a 30s cooldown! We cannot use it all the time, like the Lore-master.

Legendary traits
In Defence Of Middle Earth: If you don't have this slotted, shame on you!
Oathbreaker's Shame: If you choose to slot this, make sure you use it on the right NPC. Think of a Troll-Keeper, or something else that has to go down QUICK.
Shield of the Dunedain: This is my choice, it gives a -75% on all incoming damage, which is very useful in a tight spot.
Defy Corruption: Improves the resurrection skills. Escape from Darkness will revive someone with more Morale and Power, Cry of Vengeance can rez 2 targets now.

[Joerg]

I prefer to use the 'http://lotro-wiki.com/images/thumb/3/3d/To_Arms-icon.png/18px-To_Arms-icon.png (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Image:To_Arms-icon.png) To Arms' Buff on DPS classes (Hunters are usually my choice for shield brother because of that).

[bothorn]

A comment on Hunters

In a Raid where you face big bosses it's easy to forget to use Merciful Shot (check!) as you can only use it when the target is below 50% health. So you spend 5 minutes not using it...it's easy to forget once you can...and it does a lot of damage, especially on a crit (c900-1000)

Hunters don't use traps enough...I know it's not as effective as LM root or tar...but it still stops 1 melee MOB for 10 secs joining the fight...could mean all the difference. Now I'm as guilty as everyone else on this..in fact I can't even remember where my trap skill is on my toolbar.... and maybe there's some "not cool" reason why we don't do it. Either way I think we should think about using it again.



about merciful shot, aye its more damaging than penetrating shot +124 Vs +393 damage and also its large crit bonus buttttt the problem with it is that MS has a 30sec cooldown and costs 6 focus where PS is 3secs and 2 focus ( 3 focus if it's not traited but really it should always be traited i think) I just think for bonus to damage it offers its just not worth it compared to firing off loads of PS with the right build u can fire it off everytime it comes around no problem without worrying about focus to much, thats my 2 cents anyhoo feel free to pick it apart heh

[Raedwulf]

I used this as a template & edit pad to put together the new Rough Guide to Raiding in the Class & Gameplay section of the forum. This thread is therefore closed & locked. Please make any comment in the new version!