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View Full Version : The Watcher Revisited [Oct. '09]


Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 15:35
Basics
Environmental effects
Gloom 140: 35 radiance from armor is the absolute minimum to avoid cowering, and only if having Destiny Points to buy +10 radiance for the fight. There is more to dread (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10032&postcount=25) than cowering and more radiance is preferred to lessen the toll of dread on morale, damage and skill levels.

Acid damage: There is a constant environmental acid damage-over-time on everyone, just as most of the direct damage is consider acid; armor sets providing acid resistance are preferred.

Setting up
Graphics: This fight is done in water. To be able to see past the reflective surface of the water and know where to place yourself, make absolutely sure to go to your Advanced Graphics’ settings and toggle off Post Processing Effects. You can also just set your graphics to low - and at the same time diminish lag.

Teamspeak: Make sure to join our teamspeak server - and get it working before the night of the raid. Remember to adjust your ingame sounds to be able to hear teamspeak, even when the battle rages. When in combat remember to follow teamspeak protocol (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=802): Only speak when needed, make it short and to the point and use your name (only the raid leader is entitled to using 'I').

Consumables: You will find this in every single raid sign up, but remember that you are expected to bring plenty of Hope tokens, battle scrolls, athelas & celebrant pots, vitality food, regenerative food and lamb and mushroom soups.

Arming yourself: The Watcher, including all his tentacles, counts as Ancient Evil making Beleriand damage preferred.

The Fight
The fight against the Watcher happens in three phases, each with their unique conditions.

Phase I
In this phase the Watcher will do a directional effect, Vile Scream, heralded by the on-screen script 'The Watcher shakes with anger'. Get caught in it and you die. To avoid this we have to stay close together, thus controlling which way he face; and we all have to move in the same direction to dodge the scream. To do so the raid leader will tell you in advance which way to go next time.


Because of the need to move suddenly make sure not to use long skills with long inductions or long animations 'rooting' you. This includes fellowship maneuvers - so ignore FMs in this phase

Gather up inside the gate, sorting the very last buffs.
Tank steps forward to the edge of the shore to activate the fight; the entire group runs left when the 'The Watcher shakes with anger' script appears. Make sure not to run all the way onto dry ground, as this might spawn a small tentacle on you.
Two Wriggling Tentacles (elite masters) spawn in the center and to the right; we bunch up behind and kill the left tentacle in single file. Try to let the assigned hunter get agro (dump threat on him if you can) as the Wriggling Tentacle does AoE and knockback if tanked in melee; a second assigned hunter picks up and tanks the right Wriggling Tentacle.
At the next Vile Scream, usually a few seconds after we have killed the first Wriggling Tentacle, we run right. Again, make sure not to run all the way onto dry ground, as this might spawn a small tentacle on you.
Now a small tentacle will spawn on a random member of the raid; healers make sure to watch his health, while the rest of the raid concentrates on killing the remaining Wriggling Tentacle. We want it dead before the next Vile Scream.
When the second Wriggling Tentacle dies Phase I is done. The Watcher will no longer do Vile Screams, but will be pulling a platform from above - this does 1k-2k damage to everyone, so make sure to heal/drink an athelas if short on morale.
Melees now free the person rooted by the small tentacle, while the two hunters each pick up two Massive Tentacles spawned in the center of the water.
Finally all move to the platform in the center of the water, captains moving first (as one of the first in the deep water will be rooted); beware of the tentacles circling the center platform (often called 'sharks') as they can do up to 3k damage if you get within reach; when on the platform let the ranged free those left behind, dangled or rooted.
Phase II
In this phase we will be fighting two Massive Tentacles (elite masters) in the center. The Massive Tentacles only target one if ranged, but if melee they both do AoE to the entire raid and they cause knockbacks (with the risk of being fed to the 'sharks'). These tentacles can do melee attacks several meters away (and thus AoE). For this very reason the tentacles will be tanked in range by a hunter, the hunter standing on the opposite side of the platform to avoid the tentacles using AoE.

Strangling Tentacles: in this and the following phase a tentacle will randomly spawn every 60 seconds hanging a raid member upside down. This takes the person out of the fight and it places a steadily increasing DoT on him. Danglers are first priority to be freed, so all but the shift to free them and/or heal them (hunter excepted if they have yet to control a Massive Tentacle). When dangled target the tentacle dangling you and then press 'X' in the chat - this allows all to know and to target the Strangling Tentacle fast.


Random tossing: Every so often someone will be randomly thrown by a tentacle appearing out of nowhere and tossing them. Try to move while flying (momentum being fuzzy) to avoid two things - landing on, and being killed by, a 'shark or landing on the shore, which spawns another tentacle on you (rooting or dangling you).

There is no rush so allow hunters to grab hold of their respective Massive Tentacles (which might be slower if they were among the rooted/dangling).
Kill the left Massive Tentacle.
Bring the right Massive Tentacle down to 10k.
All stop attacking (turn off auto attacks - as you might be tossed close enough on the Massive Tentacle to hit it).
Bunch up on the left corner of the platform (make sure not to get too close to the 'sharks' which circles quite close when passing this corner).
Captains renew buffs, lore-masters distribute power, champions ensure that they have maximum fervor, and the hunter tanking the remaining Massive Tentacle steadily brings it down to around 1-2k.
Observe who gets dangled as just after we have freed someone from a Strangling Tentacle, the hunters will be killing the remaining Massive Tentacle. Timing depends on who gets dangled as especially champions, captains and minstrels will have to be ready for the next phase.
As the last Massive Tentacle is killed Phase II will be done; after a brief and fierce transition Phase III will begin.
Interlude: Transition In this transition 12 Crushing Tentacles will spawn - one for each raid member. The trick is to have them all spawned very close together to ease hitting them with every conceivable AoE at our disposal. However, these tentacles also do AoE themselves (in melee), so most the raid will have to move.


30 seconds after the Crushing Tentacles spawned, two new master elite tentacles will spawn, Shaking Tentacles, soon followed by the appearance of the Watcher (30 seconds later). In other words it's a race to kill the Crushing Tentacles and get in position for the Shaking Tentacles, the Watcher, and Phase III.

As soon as the 12 Crushing Tentacles (not before!), all but the champions move away from the corner regrouping on the middle of the platform. To do this fluently a lot of skills need to be tightly timed by both the champions and captains (and others) - check the class specific information at the end of this guide.
Champions AoE the 12 Crushing Tentacles, ranged supporting from the middle of the platform using as much AoE as possible.
Burglar(s) trigger a FM and all but the champion goes green; champions carry on killing ignoring this FM.
Phase IIIIn this phase we will fight the Watcher, two respawning Shaking Tentacles (respawning every 60s) and a Strangling Tentacle (spawning every 60s). If both Shaking Tentacles are allowed to survive for 60 seconds the Watcher will heal (and he will deal out more damage) - enough to heal him entirely - making the third phase about all the time having killed one Shaking Tentacle and damaged the remaining enough that it can swiftly be killed.

Corruptions: The Watcher will build corruptions every 15 seconds. One type, the ranged, cannot be removed, the other, the melee, can. Lore-masters will have coordinated their corruption removals before the raid starts, often timing their first use of removals 15 seconds apart and then removing every time their Dispel Corruption is out of cool-down. Other classes being called to step in if the lore-master is resisted, or behind schedule due to being dangled. The tank will keep the raid updated on the number of corruptions.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m155/ulisterius/Watcherrangedcorruption.jpghttp://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m155/ulisterius/Watchermeleecorruption.jpg


Terror of the Deep: a full AoE attack that does a lot of damage and causes a knockback, that will often root people on the shore, tentacles spawning on them upon landing. Needless to say this can cause a lot of problems seriously setting back the raid. Luckily this can be avoided. The attack is given away by the Watcher having an induction circle (which is more or less equal to the range of the skill) and the script 'The Watcher shakes in anger'. Keep an eye out for this, just as your raid leader will also try to warn you, and step back in time to avoid the attack. Standing on (or swimming over) the outer rim of the platform will be safe. Do note that the tank will stay in position - since this will avoid him getting tossed - and will need to be fully healed when the attack is announced.

Tank positions himself in the water inside the circle of the platform opposite the rest of the raid.
Each of the two hunters grabs their designated Shaking Tentacle, tanking it from range from the other side of the platform (closer to the other Shaking Tentacle).
Tank grabs the Watcher targeting him as soon as he is within reach to use the first threat skills. It is very important to grab the Watcher fast or he might turn toward the rest of the raid doing a large amount of area damage.
A Burglar also targets the Watcher as he closes from beneath and forces a FM as soon as he is within range - this gives the guard more time to use threat skills on the Watcher, while the rest goes green.
Raid will attack one of the Shaking Tentacles, making sure to allow the hunter to get/keep agro. The Shaking Tentacles do AoE when targeting someone in melee, so it is important to the survival of the raid that no one steals it from the ranged hunter - and that they move away from melee immediately if they do.
A short while after the Watcher appeared a 'The Watcher becomes enraged' script announces that he starts building corruptions. This signals the start of corruptions building.
From here on it will be a steady cycle of killing one Shaking Tentacle, bringing the other to 10k, and only attacking the Watcher, when only one tentacle remains (at 10k or less). This cycle is only paused when freeing someone dangling (every 60 seconds).
ClassesThis part includes both advice on your traiting as well as crucial details to your specific role in the fight.


Traiting:
-

Preparation:
-

In generel:
-

Phase X (specific part of the fight):
-

One of your most important jobs is to ensure that the watcher is permanently under the effect of your Traited Disable aside that keep placing your Reveal weakness and Counter defence on which ever healing tentacle we are dps'ing at the time and try to launch FSM's via exposed throat, Save your Main FSM launching skills for releasing the tank if he becomes dangled. Carrying Bags of marbles adds another option to you for doing as well.

Traiting:
- One captain should trait 5 blue + 2 yellow (Defiance and Blood of Númenor suggested) for allowing Hands of Healing and allowing swift use of Marks. Idome, HoH and Shield of the Dunedain as legendary traits. This captain will be in the same group as the tank.
- The other captain should trait as hybrid 3 blue (Captain's Hope and Fear No Darkness suggested plus a third) + 2 yellow (Defiance and Blood of Númenor suggested) + 2 red (Renewed Voice and Expert Attacks suggested), using Idome, Shield of the Dunedain, and Oathbreaker's Shame. This captain will be in the non-tank group.

Preparation:
Coordinate marks with the other captain, letting one do Telling and the other Revealing.

In generel:
- Help to heal anyone falling low, focusing on dangling people (especially if it is a tank or healer).
- Feel free to use Cry of Vengeance on the spot, but say so as to not have the other captain do the same (and to prepare everyone to heal the person as he is ressed with low morale). When using it try to move three steps back first - that is out of range of the Watcher's Terror of the Deep - to not risk instant re-defeat.
- Do not use Escape from Darkness untill the raid leader tells you to.

Transition (specific part of the fight):
- Make sure to rebuff anyone needing it while waiting to trigger the transition and make sure to make the champion in your group your shield-brother.
- For the champion(s) to be able to kill the 12 Crushing Tentacles fast they rely on your buffs. My best advice is the following timing of skills: When the hunters kill the remaining Massive Tentacle click War-cry followed by To Arms, Shield of the Dunedain (on the champion), Strength of Will, and Rallying Cry.
- Do not use In Harms Way/Last Stand by default - it is seldom needed and better used toward the end of Phase III - but do keep it ready if you assess the need for it now.

Phase III (specific part of the fight):
- Once the 12 Crushing Tentacles are down change your shield-brother to the tank or to a tanking hunter, depending on which group you are in. Keep Strenght of Will up at all times.
- If in the tanking group, place your hope banner in the middle of the water, where the Watcher will appear, to also have it reach the tank. Keep an eye on the banner buff icon as you will probably have to swim into the middle and renew the banner during the fight.
- Keep an eye on Idome - if in the tank's group make sure to swim to the middle, to have it reach the tank when reapplying.
- When the "Watcher shakes in Anger" make sure to help heal the tank if he is not already at full morale.
- Once the Watcher is dipping below 50.000 the raid leader will eventually call for Oathbreaker's Shame on the Watcher - also if not used yet then use In Harm's Way now.

Traiting:
- Virtues: Innocence and Zeal recomended due to melee mitigation and poison resist.
- Class traits: As Deathstorm is really needed for the transition you will need 5 yellow traits.
- Legendary traits: Deathstorm is a must for the transition and Controlled Burn and Explosion of Blades are recomended.

In generel:
- You should use Red haze at the first dead tentacle for free fervour for the entire battle.

The Transition:
- it is our job to kill the 12 Crushing Tentacles as quick as possible. Having Controlled Burn for this part of the fight is essential, don't forget to use Adamant just or any other skill or object you have to increase either defense or melee damage, and be sure you are on 5 of fervour when the tentacles spawn.
- On the last Strangling tentacle use Fighting Dirty so you will do +25% AOE damage at the transition.
- Suggested skill pattern: Raging Blades, Battle-Frenzy, Deathstorm, Raging Blades, Bladestorm. Any AoE from here on, using Fighting Dirty as often as needed and possible.

Phase III:
- having a good melee range when doing AoE, specially with Raging Blade, you can stand between the tentacle and the watcher when fighting with a tentacle and be able to hit both of them. The same goes when having to kill both a Strangling Tentacle and Shaking Tentacle or the Watcher.
- If the tank is dangling (or outright killed), you have to run to his position to help free the him and to be ready to taunt the Watcher using Champion's Challenge (coordinate this with the other champions to have the forced taunts last longer) to keep the Watcher on you - and turned away from the rest of the raid.

Traiting:
- Virtues: Zeal, Innocence and Honour for melee mitigation and poison resist. Other virtues free of choice.
- Class traits: Stinging blow (in case sting gets resisted = which will happen), Stoic, Defensive Expertise, Guardians Ward and Controlled Breathing (especially good if only one loremaster in the raid. Other two class traits free of choice. Any of the four Guardian stances work well in this fight except Overpower - its up to the GRD what stance he is the most comfortable in and pick the remaining traits accordingly. Note: do not trait for challenge as this might be the only fight where you never use that skill.
- Legendary traits: To the King (usually opens between 2-5 FMs on the Watcher) and Shield Smash recommeded.

Preparation:
-Use all buffing consumables before starting Phase I except for shield spikes and clickies (amber ring etc etc). You will have plenty of time to apply/click these before transition to Phase III (that way they will last through the entire Phase III).

In generel:
- Since hunters always tank the elite master tentacles you can freely spend the first two phases in Overpower.

Phase III (specific part of the fight):
-Your job really doesn't start until Phase III. Swim out to the spot where the Watcher will spawn (middle of the square pool). He will appear, sink down underwater and start rising to the surface again. Get his attention before he comes up to the surface the second time (you have about 4 seconds) and make sure he is facing away from the raid.
-"The Watcher shakes with anger" you have 2-3 seconds to get really close to him. Swim up to the Watcher until your shield is touching the red cirkle that surrounds him. You can only see this circle during "shakes with anger" as he is otherwise too big and it is hidden beneath him. Stay that close until you get a mini-knockback.
- If he ever gets 2 or more melee (red) corruptions on him call for help immediately (unless you know your stinging blow will clear one within the next few seconds). The ideal amount of corruptions on him should always be 0 to 1. 2 is tough and 3 can kill you in seconds. Keep watching for your stinging blow corruption removal icon on the Watcher and always reapply it as soon as it expires.
- Never get out of melee range, as his ranged corruptions (non-removable) build up more and more, he can hit you for 10k+ damage in a single shot, toward the end of the fight, if you drift off too far.


Traiting:
- Virtues: You will be tanking the various elite master tentacles through-out the fight, so traiting for mitigating ranged and acid damage is adviced
- Class traits: You will be in Strength stance for most the fight, so no need for traits enhancing Endurance or Precision stances. Bow-master traits are useful, but in spite of the added trait-set threat bonus it can be an idea to bring 3 or 4 blue traits. It will reduce your power consumtion and improve your speed - and speed helps as much as threat when picking up newly spawned Shaking Tentacles.
- Legendary traits: Righteous Bow is quite useful considering Strength Stance will be used. There is no need for rooting, but Rain of Thorns can be used as an extra AoE in case there are no other legendary traits needed in its place.

Preparation:
- Coordinate with raid leader and other hunter(s) who tanks what master elite tentacle, usually by having one tank the left and the other the right one at any given time. Both fire and light oil has its uses (fire for the DoT and light for the debuff) as well as chants.

In generel:
- Strength stance throughout the fight tanking the master elite tentacles (Wriggling, Massive and Shaking).

Phase III:
- When a new Shaking Tentacle appear that you are designated to tank start working on it immediately, gaining you a head start while the rest of the raid finishes their current objective (killing the other tentacle, freeing a dangler etc.).
- if another tanking hunter is dangled as his designated Shaking Tentacle respawns, grab it and move out of melee range (crossing over the center of the platform or stand on the exact center), keeping it untill the other hunter is back in force.
- If the main tank is dangled it is your first priority to free him.
- When the Watcher goes below 50% morale use your Merciful Shot as added corruption removal.


Traiting
-One lore-master should be Ancient Master (Study of Firelore + windlore, and capstone are essential, most other traits would be personal preference).
-A second lore-master should trait heavy DPS (5 MoNF + capstone) with a mind to sharing power (P&W).

Preperation
-Coordinate how to handle the 12 Crushing Tentacles. I usually have the DPS loremaster start with Firelore, Ancient Craft, Lightning Storm, the Ancient Master with Tar and Gust of Wind.
-Coordinate the Dispel Corruption cycle. I usually have the Ancient master start, and have him send a tell after 15 seconds for the other to start

In general
The usual power shares, back up heals, AM mainly debuffs, MoNF mainly DPS.

Phase III (AM specific).
- Firelore, SoP:C and SoE should be on the watcher at all time. Cast windlore whenever a new Shaking Tentacle spawns.
- Help to heal those dangled, especially if this is a tank or a healer.
- Killing tentacles spawned on the shore as well as those dangling the main tank has your priority.
- DPS Lore-master steps in if the AM is resisted on debuffs.


Traiting:
-

Preparation:
-

In generel:
-

Phase X (specific part of the fight):
-

I would recommend Four Blue traits, Graceful Demeanor, Focused Performance, Life Singer and Silver Tongue. On top of those, minstrel's preference applies but I like Smooth Voice and the one that extends the chance to perform the next tier ballad as it also increases the duration for each +3% healing buff you gain from tiering up ballads. Of course, Rally & Fellowship's Heart are a must.


Traiting:
-

Preparation:
-

In generel:
-

Phase X (specific part of the fight):
-



Traiting:
- Virtues: Empathy, Innocence, Loyalty, Valour and Zeal. To buff up your incomming melee % and your armour value as much as possible.
- Class traits: Master of the Shield, Never Say Die, Perservance, Skillful Blocking, Ward of Justice, Way of the Spear and Way of the Fist. 5 from the shield line basicly because your and the extra heal from conviction helps alot if you are set to remove corruptions. Way of the Spear to be able to remove corruptions faster if you miss on one hit.
- Legendary traits: Grand master Weapon Training, Way of the Warden and Way of the Shield.

Preparation:
Use all buffing consumables before starting Phase I except for shield spikes and clickies (amber ring etc etc). You will have plenty of time to apply/click these before transition to Phase III (that way they will last through the entire Phase III).

In generel:
- Since hunters always tank the elite master tentacles you can freely spend the first two phases in DPSing. Since this will be one contineous fight you can trigger Way of the Warden during Phase I.

Phase III:
-If main tank your job really doesn't start until Phase III. Swim out to the spot where the Watcher will spawn (middle of the square pool). He will appear, sink down underwater and start rising to the surface again. Get his attention before he comes up to the surface the second time (you have about 4 seconds) and make sure he is facing away from the raid.
- Build your Shield Mastery with your mastery skills. Then use Fist/spear from Master of the Fist trait to make Precise Blow. Once the Watcher comes up, use Precise Blow, by then the first/spear should already be off cooldown again, so use it and hit the Watcher once again when he arrives the second time.
- Now that you got his initial agro, build up Shield Mastery again, use Conviction, Dance of War and hit him with your Precise Blow. Once you feel secure about agro, start removing corruptions on him. Be ready to shout for help if they reach 2 or 3 corruptions.
-"The Watcher shakes with anger" you have 2-3 seconds to get really close to him. Swim up to the Watcher until your shield is touching the red cirkle that surrounds him. You can only see this circle during "shakes with anger" as he is otherwise too big and it is hidden beneath him. Stay that close until you get a mini-knockback.
- Never get out of melee range, as his ranged corruptions (non-removable) build up more and more, he can hit you for 10k+ damage in a single shot, toward the end of the fight, if you drift off too far.


I include here a briliant video done by the Risen kinship (http://www.bryzi.net/risen/)on [EN] Eldar. It is recommended for people yet to visit the Vile Maw to give you a more visual introduction to the fight (HD recommended).

E-EGpQkqrvk

A first draft. Next step is to shorten and trim the text and to add more detail to the class part.

Tevra
22 Oct 2009, 15:51
Hi,

There seems to be a broken link in para one ('dread') or the permissions on the target thread (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10032&postcount=25) might be oldly set - at least it currently gives me a 'you do not have permission to access this page' error.

Feel free to delete this post to keep the thread tidy - just letting you know :)

Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 16:03
No need to delete. The link works, but it's to a folder only available to full members. The link is to screenshots of what various dread levels does and nothing really important.

New members are usually recruits for a little while (a little longer if they join only to be passive) before being upgraded. I'm sure yours isn't far off ;)

Dellannan
22 Oct 2009, 16:15
Feel free to use the image I posted in the other thread as you see fit Hirion, or anyone else for that matter.

A good writeup, but there are two spoiler tags for minstrels. Is that intended?

Aikanaron
22 Oct 2009, 16:21
I uploaded it to a public place so it's easier to use in guides and stuff. If you can want you can use it? If not, fine as well. ;)

http://tweakers.net/ext/f/wYcyA7OmuyipBYQ6rKdmqpjO/full.jpg

Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 16:27
Sometimes I get a annoyed at this forum editing. Bland spaces and blank lines keep reappearing. And I've removed that second minstrel bit 5 times AND it keeps reappearing!

Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 16:32
I give up! It is haunted! Changed that bit 10 times now and it keeps reverting! Bo is that you walking the old halls? :shock:

Raedwulf
22 Oct 2009, 16:36
Yes, it does have a bad habit of randomly shoving in extra lines. It's the list command that does it. Incidentally, I've only skimmed the guide, but I would say the length is fine. There's no real need to shorten it.

Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 16:39
But wy on earth does it keep showing back in a removed code?

[/spoiler][spoiler=Minstrel] to be exact.

Raedwulf
22 Oct 2009, 16:40
I'm having a go at it myself & chuckling bemusedly... :)

Raedwulf
22 Oct 2009, 16:44
Got there eventually. It was something to do with the outer closing tag. Once I removed & re-typed that, it was fine.

Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 16:49
Yeah found it myself too - using that Switch Editor Mode thingy.

Will leave the draft for today, to get back at it with fresh eyes. At which time I'll toss myself at the individual class parts (trying to sort them all in Traiting and Phase etc etc) and possible a little more on FMs.

Notiane
22 Oct 2009, 20:06
Phase III, the end of the 1st paragraph:damaged the reamining enough that it can swiftly be killed.
minor mistake, but reamining=remaining

please delete post after editing

Raedwulf
22 Oct 2009, 20:50
Oh, there's lots of typo's Noti. I presumed Hiri hadn't spellchecked yet & didn't bother to comment! ;)

Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 22:19
Afraid I have no spell-check installed here (unless I copy-paste it to word and do it there), hence the part about needing to leave it behind for a while, before returning with fresh eyes. I tend to miss my own typos, especially at first, because upon reading it my thoughts when writing it would spring to mind rather than the text itself.

Dellannan
22 Oct 2009, 22:50
That is why you use Opera 10 with built in spell checker, works wonders in forums like this and writing small things in the browser :)

Hirion
22 Oct 2009, 22:57
Reading the guide it feels extensive - maybe too much too. But then again it also reminds me how much attention to detail this fight commands and how much of it have become instinct. I don't think I can expect anyone to read this and take it all in before one's first Vile Maw raid, but I hope it can clarify things if looking over it a few times.

Hirion
24 Oct 2009, 14:21
I've started on the class specific information - not surprisingly starting with the captains. Check out the editing and tell me what you think of the sectioning.


Finally inputs to the roles of other classes are more than welcome. Be careful to keep the from getting too long (something obviously challenging myself as well).

Hirion
26 Oct 2009, 16:33
Still looking for inputs on specific class roles/traiting. So far only the captain part has been done.

Ontaremakil
26 Oct 2009, 17:07
If you want I can help you later with the champ one, lucky that is an easy one :P

Eiyja
26 Oct 2009, 18:14
Ill have a crack at it;

Traiting:
- for Virtues: Zeal, Innocence and Honour for melee mitigation and poison resist. Other virtues free of choise.
- for class traits: Stinging blow (a must have incase sting gets resisted = will happen almost guaranteed more than once), Stoic, Defencive Expertice, Guardians Ward and Controlled Breathing (CB is especially good if only 1 loremaster in the raid but othervise not essential). Other two class traits free of choise. Any of the four Guardian stances work well in this fight except Overpower - its up to the GRD what stance he is the most comfortable in and pick the remaining traits accordingly. Note: do not trait for challenge as this might be the only fight where you never use that skill.
- for legendary traits: I dont see any huge advantage of using the new Moria legendary traits in this fight (those that require 5-in-a-line slotted in class traits to be able to equip. So this one is free of choise for the GRD). I personally use To the King (usually opens between 2-5 FMs on the watcher during the fight), guardians threat and shield smash.

Preparation:
-Use all buffing consumables before starting phase1 except for shield spikes and clickies (amber ring etc etc). You will have plenty of time to apply/click these before transition to phase3 (they do work in combat and that way they will last through the whole phase3).

In generel:
- If hunters always tank the elite master tentacles you can freely spend phase1 and phase2 in overpower.

Phase X (specific part of the fight):
-Your job doesnt start really until phase3. Swim out to the spot where the Watcher will spawn (middle of the square pool). He will appear, sink down underwater and start rising to the surface again. Get his attention before he comes up to the surface the second time (you have about 4 seconds) and make sure he is facing away from the raid.

-"the watcher becomes enraged" is when he starts building corruptions. Most of the fight you need to focus on his buffs and debuffs. Keep watchign for your stinging blow corruption removal icon on the Watcher and always reapply it as soon as it expires.

-"the Watcher shakes with anger" you have 2-3 seconds to get really close to him. Swim up to the Watcher until your shield is touching the red cirkle that surrounds him. You can only see this cirkle during "shakes with anger" as he is otherwise too big and it is hidden beneath him. Stay that close until you get a mini-knockback.

- if he ever gets 2 or more melee (red) corruptions on him call for help immediately (unless you know your stinging blow will clear one within the next few seconds). The ideal amount of corruptions on him should always be 0 to 1. 2 is tough and 3 can kill you in seconds.

-Never get out of melee range, as his ranged corruptions (non-removable) build up more and more he can in the middle/late stage of phase 3 hit you for 10k+ damage in a single shot if you drift off too far. IF you get knocked back very far (outside the square pool)- pop guardians pledge while in the air, pop your runspeed skill when you land and pray. this raises your % to survive (most likely you wont anyway) until you are safe within melee range again.

Hirion
26 Oct 2009, 18:29
Awesome work Eiyja. Thank you very much!

I have added it to the guide with only a few changes (minor typos and a shorting down a passage or two).

Eiyja
26 Oct 2009, 18:40
I know I usually elaborate things too much ;) I was just going to suggest that if there is something usable in it but if its too long then feel free to shave it down.

Eiyja
26 Oct 2009, 18:49
On guardian guide, the section "legendary traits" could you remove "I recommend guardians threat" pls? Many GRDs prefere guardians parry or guardians block stance and all 3 work fine in this fight.

That one got cut out of context, I dont rly recommend it I just use it myself. Shield Smash and to the King I can recommend as it says.

thanks ;)

Hirion
26 Oct 2009, 18:55
Will do.

Also made a draft for the hunter section.

Eiyja
26 Oct 2009, 19:02
btw super job on the guide as a whole. I like that you also clipped in the tutorial video.

Notiane
26 Oct 2009, 20:09
use/revise as you see fit, the Loremasterbit:

Traiting
-One loremaster should be Ancient Master (Study of Firelore +windlore, and capstone are essential, most other traits would be personal preference)
-a second lm should trait heavy dps (5 MoNF + capstone) with a mind to sharing power (P&W)

Preperation
-Coordinate how to handle 12 tentacles. I usually have the dps loremaster start with Firelore, Ancient Craft, Lightning Storm, the Ancient Master with Tar and Gust of Wind.
-Coordinate the Dispel Corruption cycle. I usually have the Ancient master start, and have him send a tell after 15 seconds for the other to start

In general
The usual power shares, back up heals, AM mainly debuffs, MoNF mainly dps.

Phase III, AM specific.
Firelore, SoP.C and SoE should be on the watcher at all time. Cast windlore whenever a new tentacle spawns
will edit and elaborate later, due to other engagements

Ontaremakil
26 Oct 2009, 22:49
Traiting:
- Virtues: Innocence is almost a must and Zeal also helps, both because of melee mitigation and poison resist, apart from that, is at your choice.
- Class traits: As Deathstorm is really needed for the transition you will need 5 yellow traits. I recomend Stalward Blade, Winds of the Storm, Eye of the Storm, Dirt Cheap and Fervent rage. You may choose whatever you want for the other 2, personally I have traited Braced Against Defeat and Controlled Fury
- Legendary traits: As I sayed before Deathstorm is a must for a champion for the transition as well as Controlled Burn, Explosion of Blades is my third legendary always

Preparation:
- Nothing special, just the usuall food as everyone else: Lamb and Mushroom Soup, Red Tea...

In generel:
- Until the transition, champions only need to DPS whatever is on the RAT without taking the agro, if you do so, run out of range of that tentacle as it does aoe when hitting in melee. You should use Red haze at the first dead tentacle for free fervour for the whole battle.

The Transition (between phase 2 and 3):

This is the big moment of the champions, when the second tentacle on the phase 2 is killed, 12 tentacles will spawn and is our job to kill them as quick as possible. You will be protected, hopefully, by a captain and a minstrel, so morale shoudn't be a problem, but having Controlled Burn for this part of the fight is essential, don't forget to use Adamant just before they appear as well as +75% to parry if you're an elf or any other object you have to increase either defense or melee damage, but be sure you are on 5 of fervour when the tentacles spawn.

From now on is my own experience on this part of the fight and it works pretty good to me, if someone has another system that works, is perfectly ok as well.

On the last Dangling tentacle use Fighting Dirty so you will do +25% AOE damage at the transition.

Once the tentacles appear use Raging Blade to take their agro as soon as possible as you will hit all of them, Battle-Frenzy to refill your fervour, use Deathstorm and then AOE like mad until all tentacles are dead, easy stuff. Remember to use Fighting Dirty every time you can as it does +25% to damage when AOE and adds 1 to fervour pip.


Phase III:

Your job, again, is DPS whatever is on the RAT but never having any agro of any tentacle, that is Hunter's task, remember to run out of range if you have it. As we have a good melee range when doing AOE, specially with Raging Blade, you can stand between the tentacle and the watcher when fighting with a tentacle and be able to hit both of them.

There are only 2 specific jobs you need to take care:

- Freeing dangling people should be every melee class first priority, except the tank of course.

- If you are so unlucky that your tank is killed or about to, specially if it's dangling, you, as an off-tank have to run to his possition and be ready to taunt the Watcher using Champion's Challenge and prey to keep his agro until the tank is up again. If there are more than one champion, you should coordinate with the other/s so you don't do it at the same time and the watcher stays with you and not facing the raid.


I'm sure this is gonna be full of typos so I'm sorry about it :P

If anyone has another thing to add or correct, feel free to tell me, as it will improve the guide, and if you have to blame someone about this, is totally my fault, I've written alone xD

Finally thanks to Eiyja because I've copy his system to post the guide ;)

Degorond
26 Oct 2009, 23:18
Just some additional things for Onta's nice guide.

For the champs, remember to pop Red-haze at the beginning of the fight, since we are in combat the entire fight this is very nice to get extra fervour!
Also, i prefer using Fericious strike instead of CB to get the best single dmg skill.



Well, if i may suggest a skill pattern for the transition for champs:

When killing the last dangler before before the hunter kills the 2nd big tentacle:
Make sure you pop a fighting dirty(this can only be used when mob has 25% health or less) so just make sure you pop that one(12 man killing a 6k dangler will go very fast so just spam it.) When the dangler is down, pop Adamant(Dont use Sudden defence, it will just delete your fervour) and wait for the hunter to kill the 2nd big Tentacle. 12 spawning tentacles will be just in front of you and use this pattern:

Raging Blades
Battle-Frenzy
Deathstorm
Ragin Blades
Bladestorm
Then just random AOE skills

Ontaremakil
26 Oct 2009, 23:47
Damn true, I forgot about using Fighting Dirty on the last Dangling and using Adamant, and I didn't sayed anything about Red Haze because I think is so obvious that any champion can't forget that, but, anyway, good point. Will add that inmediatly, thanks Deg.

About Ferocious instead of CB I only have to say that the transition is much smoother with parry, evade and full incoming healing, so I declined using Ferocious on the watcher even if it means a bit less of single DPS

Raedwulf
27 Oct 2009, 09:55
I didn't sayed anything about Red Haze because I think is so obvious that any champion can't forget that...

And I agree. You know my opinion about instance guides by now - tell 'em what they need to know about the instance; don't tell 'em how to play their class! ;)

The only specific comment I'd make is that I don't trait either Fervent or BAD. Fervour builds quick enough, and healing is someone else's worry. I've Dire Need & the Man heal for emergencies. I set-up 5Y / 2R, and most of the time end up using that when soloing too, cos I can't be bothered to change! I'm mystified you're not traiting Improved Rend, which I never ever drop. If you want Fervent, I'd suggest dropping EotS. Personally I don't use Blade Storm often enough these days for the trait to be worth it. The two reds are Vicious Strikes & Flurry of Blows (another I never, ever drop). CB lasts long enough for the transition without being traited.

Ontaremakil
27 Oct 2009, 16:29
well I only trait Fervent for the watcher to use Deathstorm quicker but it's true is not really needed, you can rise your fervour with blade wall, wild attack, or even swift strike. Traiting 2 blues I've got bonus to the Champion's Challenge in case I need to taunt the watcher, so I've decided those 2 thanks to my other experience as minstrel to help them a bit with healing :)

I use Blade-Storm a lot so having EotS makes it quicker to aoe like mad and as Hedge is not needed in the watcher and improved rend is almost nonsense I pick Fervent against Mighty Blast as the 5th yellow because is hard to parry, evade or block the Sound of Attack without it traited and and it only stuns 5 targets and there are 12 tentacles.

But as I sayed is just my point of view, any other that works is perfect as well :P

Hirion
30 Oct 2009, 11:15
Finally thanks to Eiyja because I've copy his system to post the guide ;)
Yeah, it really is a nice system. ;)

I have included you drafts for lore-master and champion. I have adjusted names of various tentacles and I have deleted anything that is already in the main guide, just as I've shortened what I found could benefit from shortening. The objective is to keep this as short and to the point as possible and to not needlessly say anything twice - and even so it is still a long guide.

Also I am no expert of champions, so I have shaved down the traiting part to a bare minimum (enforced by seeing the champions not being entirely agreeing themselves).

Hirion
30 Oct 2009, 11:27
Update: Drafts/inputs for burglars, minstrels, rune-keepers, and wardens are the ones missing.

Eriondin
05 Nov 2009, 16:25
WARDEN:

Traiting:
- Virtues: Empathy, Innocence, Loyalty, Valour and Zeal. To buff up your incomming melee % and your armour value as much as possible.

- Class traits: Master of the shield, never say die, Perservance, skillful blocking, ward of justice, way of the spear and way of the fist.
5 from the shield line basicly because your and the extra heal from conviction helps alot if you are set to remove corruptions. Way of the spear to be able to remove corruptions faster if you miss on one hit.

Legendaries: Grand master weapon training, way of the warden and way of the shield.

Preparation:
- Beleriand scroll on both weapon and javelin.


In generel:
- As tank:
Keep his attention, remove corruptions, keep all most important self buffs up and get out in time when he use his shout.

Phase 1:
In phase one, you just dps the tentacles down. Just run where all the others run.

Phase 2:
Phase two is just the same really. If the hunter cant get hold of his tentacle though, grab its agro and turn it away from the group so it only hits you.

Phase 3:
At phase three, run to your tanking spot. Should be about middle of the square. When the two big tentacles pop up, it should be about 30 seconds until the watcher pops up. Build your shield mastery with your mastery skills. Then use Fist/spear from master of the fist trait to make precise blow. Once the watcher comes up, use precise blow, by then the first/spear should already be off cooldown again, so use it and hit the watcher once again when he arrives the second time.

Now that you got his initial agro, build up shield mastery again, use conviction, dance of war and hit him with your precise blow. Once you feel secure about agro, start removing corruptions on him. Be ready to shout for help if you miss though.

To make sure you will get away from him before he kicks you: Make sure you are just in the range of melee attacks, so if you step abit back you get in ranged combat with him. (do not go in ranged with him though, will be fatal)! When the induction starts, just swim back to the bridge part.

This is all rinse and repeat, if you get into a dangeling tentacle, mark it, so the ranged can see it easier. If you want to know more, feel free to ask me.

Hirion
05 Nov 2009, 17:22
Thank you for your addition to the guide Eriondin!

I have edited out things already in the main guide (like what to do when dangling) as I want to avoid repeating elements, as the guide would otherwise be longer than it already is.

I have also edited out elements that are in contradiction of how we do the fight (we purely have ranged tanking of the Massive Tentacles in Phase II and we have the main tank actually moving closer to the Watcher instead of away in Phase III - which is also in the main guide).

I've merged your input with input from the Guardian section to the degree that it is relevant to both classes, and to keep the suggestions uniform.

Also you make an important point concerning Beleriand, but I've added that to the general guide rather than the single class - how I've managed to miss that out so far I don't know.

I am wondering whether something should be added to the Warden section on non-main tanking, but it seems very dependent on circumstances of the specific raids. In some I've had the Warden be a removal bot on the Watcher, standing in for an extra lore-master, and on some tanking a Shaking Tentacle standing in for the second hunter, and so on - so I think focusing on the role as main tank is fine for this guide.

Finally not having tanked the Watcher as Warden I was wondering if intense use of Conviction or Dance of War ever led to one of the Shaking Tentacles to turn on the Warden purely from threat draining? Writing this it springs to mind that we always put the two hunter tanks in a different group than the main tank which I guess reduces the risk of that happening.

Eriondin
05 Nov 2009, 18:47
If you use dance of war and conviction all the time you will of course get agro on the shaking tentacles, but if you just try to keep the buffs up, wich means apply them again when their about to end you can avoid this. As there is no point over agro the other stuff, as you are quite sure to have agro on what you are supposed to have agro on, the watcher.

Also, being in there for corruptions only, you can still use your javelin skills, wages of fear, shield piercer etc for extra dps. use conviction every now and then to help the healers abit. Should try to be second on agro list incase the guardian should get killed so you can snap agro so he dont turn on the group and wipe all.

Eriondin
05 Nov 2009, 18:51
Also saw that you said something about a mini-knockback. Is this is special attack or the little trick he use to push you abit away?

If its the special attack, you should never really get hit by that as he can knock you all the way back to the shore spawning some tentacles that roots and making the watcher go gung ho with ranged attacks.

Hirion
05 Nov 2009, 19:21
The thing is many groups have the main tank drop onto the stone construction as the Watcher does his Terror from the Deep (also just called 'Anger') - this is done to avoid the knockback, which as you mention cause a lot of problems as the tank gets rooted, being out of range of heals, taking range damage from the Watcher, plus adding those shored tentacles to the fight.

However there is another way. If you step really close to Watcher, you do get the hit (1-2k damage) but you do not get tossed (or rather only pushed a little little bit). This is the way we do this now.

Why? Because the exact placement on the construction can be bugged so that you get tossed anyway. Or the tank, having to move further, might react too slow by the fraction of a second, getting tossed. Stepping forward there is no risk of being tossed and it is much faster = so the only thing to keep in mind is that the tank needs to be fully healed when the attack hits. Since the tank should be that anyway that makes little difference to the fight.

What we do is preferring an approach fully putting the responsibility on us as a team (healing, debuffs, corruption removals etc.) than one including randomness (the construction/safe spot sometimes being bugged and the tank getting tossed).

Trust me, seasoned Watcher tanks were all against this approach initially but after having tried this approach once they have all turned to favouring it.

Eiyja
22 Nov 2009, 23:25
Also saw that you said something about a mini-knockback. Is this is special attack or the little trick he use to push you abit away?

If its the special attack, you should never really get hit by that as he can knock you all the way back to the shore spawning some tentacles that roots and making the watcher go gung ho with ranged attacks.


yup yup. The "watcher shakes with anger" attack does increased damage the further away you are from him when you get hit- and also the knockback effect scales up the further away from the watcher you are when you get hit by it. So there are two strategies to counter this specific attack.

The strategy you are talking about to get away and jump up on the bridge behind the Watcher and the raid does work (the best even?) and makes it so that the tank takes no damage at all. However me and Hirion talked about this before as it requires you to be very alert and if you happen to get a little bit of lag (we also had a bug one run where the animation came two or so seconds AFTER he did his attack- so there was no time to avoid it), then you are pretty much screwed. There are also those unfortunate times when you jump too far and land on the other side of the bridge *giggles* and get shot all the way to Durins Treshold for it. Or if you are just a little bit too slow to get back to him you get one-shotted by his ranged attack. And if you would happen to be dangled while on the bridge it is also an unfortunate instant wipe due to the watchers ranged corruptions.

So since the point of the guide was to be as easy as possible also for new tanks who might be going to the Vile Maw for the first time we agreed we would put up the second strategy instead (which requires a lot less alertness from the tank). And that is to instead swim very close to the Watcher every time he does his "shakes with anger".

The result is that the tank takes a little bit of damage (1-2k at the most) and gets a mini-knockback. So its a tradeoff between taking that little amount of extra damage but not having to do a 100% perfect job on escaping the shouts as we have experienced one unfortunate miss is enough to wipe the raid entirely if you are not in melee range all the time.

P.S. I have done both strategies succesfully and I have to agree that when the swimming and jumping up to the bridge works smoothly it is a much more fun way to tank.. it adds another level of excitement and also makes you take less damage. But I think in the long run seen over a timespan of multiple runs it saves time to have a strategy that does not require you to do a 100% perfect job and still get away with it. So many factors from lag to bug to the human factor will always trigger a mistake even from the best players sooner or later :) and it sucks to cause a raid wipe at the last 100K or so cus of a silly thing like that. So with that in mind. that is the reason for putting up the easier-to-learn, easier-to-excecute strategy.

P.S.2 great job on the warden guide!