Warden threat management discussion

[Iasselm]

Administrative note: Split off from the Filikul discussion (http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10329&postcount=24).


Now I'm wondering about what heals you are talking. Self heals don't generate aggro (resolution, celebration of skill and other shield-spear gambits). The group heal however does, and i think you're talking about that one. On top of the healing conviction does it also transfers the average amount of aggro of each groupmember which is later in the fight enough to keep aggro. (note: if 1 person in your group in the raid generates way more threat this isn't true!)

I have no idea how much threat I generate with warden, because the way we build is very different then any other class. In a turtle raid I usually just keep 3 spear dot's up and sometimes a desolation/surety of death and use wages of fear and shieldpiercer whenever I can. In the end it's a dpsrace and every class should dish out as much dps as possible and still manage to do their main job. When the offtank who starts tanking gets a 750 dot I start using conviction. That combined with an ebbing ire of the champ should give enough aggro for a long time. When I have aggro i keep resulotion and conviction up all the time and when someone else must get aggro I just throw in a few more Fist dots.

[Rhyaehar]

Self heals don't generate aggro (resolution, celebration of skill and other shield-spear gambits).
Who told you that? They're flatout wrong. The self-heals generate quite a bit of aggro. I would never be able to tank the Troll Twins in DN if they didn't, as I use my self-heals pretty much all the time there.

[Iasselm]

I did some testing together with fenguil. I let myself get hit till my morale dropped far enough. Fenguil did one autoattack on an orc and so did I. At this point he got aggro. I build up a resolution with masteries and used the skill on another orc. While I was healing myself, aggro on the first orc did not flip. Think this pretty much confirms that selfheals don't generate any threat. The skill description doesn't say anything about generating threat either, except for the small damage it does.

Also did some conviction testing, but I'm still not really sure how it works. Fenguil hitted an orc for 1000 damage. We both made sure we were on lower health so the heals from conviction would actually generate threat. I healed Fenguil for 1400 morale, which should be the same as 700 damage as someone on US forums tested. After doing a bit more then 200 damage I got aggro. By the looks of it only the heals of conviction were generating threat and it's not, like the tooltip says, transferring aggro or only a very small amount. You can say that i did less damage/healing then Fenguil did, but he also had -threat books / weapons equipped. However, dance of war has the same tooltip and there you don't do any healing but you do get more threat. Interesting mechanic, just would like to know how it exactly works. Maybe should try this one some bigger mobs, but it's just too hard to keep track of the damage and healing people do.

About you keeping aggro of trolls in DN, I think you keep conviction up all the time there, which is 700-1000 healing total every 2/3 (?) seconds. That's quite alot. Also all your autoattacks and healskills add threat because of the damage they do (low damage but it's something) and most likely some threat over time attacks you use at the begin of the fight.

[Rhyaehar]

I've done extensive testing against a few Elite Masters and Nemesis targets a while ago. According to my results at the time, it was my heals that generated the aggro, as I didn't even use conviction and only a handful of precise blows. Testing versus normals, signatures or elites unfortunately does not

All healing generates aggro. It's not as much as a Minstrel does with their heals, but their heals generate more threat to discourage over-usage of their heals. Just because the tooltip does not say "adds a $level amount of threat", doesn't mean it generates none.

Conviction, Dance of War and Maddening Strike leech threat, plus Conviction adds a ToT. You're going to notice their effects much quicker. Unfortunately, threat meters are not available to us, so we can't see exactly how much threat is leeched or added per attack or tick. I've heard reliable sources stating that HoTs certainly do add threat. If they did not, you might have a head start from a few ToTs you put on at the start of a fight, but normal attacks will not keep you ahead of the Hunters and Champions.

[Iasselm]

I doubt if selfheals generate aggro. A loremaster will generate alot of threat when they use wisdom of the council for example and I never see aggro flip to them if they use it in begin of the fight.

it was my heals that generated the aggro, as I didn't even use conviction and only a handful of precise blows.

Unfortunately, threat meters are not available to us, so we can't see exactly how much threat is leeched or added per attack or tick.

As you say we cannot see how much threat we generate. Maybe piercing blow keeps generating threat for much longer then we think and the heals don't do that?

Anyway, think it's better to end this discussion. We're both doing a fine job while tanking on our own way. Selfheals are always good to use, because they increase our survivability significantly.

[Derigar/Tarinas]

Heals, of all sorts, have a base threat component to them (low) and generate threat based on the amount of morale recovered, not the strength of the heal itself.

[Iasselm]

No that is not true. Once again i've tested this, with my burglar this time. I put dust in the eyes on a mob and let a friend hit the mob without weapon so he does 5 damage. I then removed the trick with mischievous glee, which is a selfheal and I didn't get aggro. (Edit: my morale wasn't max, I also let some other mobs hit me to make sure the heal actually healed me) And also like I said before, why wouldn't a loremaster get aggro of most mobs after some failed pull and has to use wisdom of the council to recover 2k morale?

[Derigar/Tarinas]

I stand corrected then, some heals are exceptions to this rule it seems

[Eiyja]

hihihi maybe its comparable to athelas pots.. no matter how many you drink you just keep failing to get the dam agro^^

[Haleabor]

Going to add to this thread by saying that Exultation of Battle is a self heal (morale drain) that has a specific Threat over Time increase and in addition to this can be added as a legendary item legacy to increase the threat level.

So saying that Heal skills don't add agro on a warden is never a clear cut statement...

Hal

[Hirion]

Going to add to this thread by saying that Exultation of Battle is a self heal (morale drain) that has a specific Threat over Time increase and in addition to this can be added as a legendary item legacy to increase the threat level.
Out of interest, and slightly off-topic, but does anyone know if the number of healing pips from Exultation of Battle can be increased by traits? I've tried testing both the traits giving extra healing pips and those giving extra DoT pips but cannot gather whether they affect this one...?

[Iasselm]

I don't consider exultation of battle a selfheal, but a moraletransfer. Like I said before this is about the shield-spear gambits. Nontheless exultation of battle is just awesome in multiple mob situations.

Hirion,
I think with the fist traits you can add extra dot pulses and with shieldline extra hot pulses, but it looks like these don't effect EoB pips.

[Rhyaehar]

Exhultation is not affected by these no, it is considered too powerful for that.

[Hirion]

What my testing implied to me - and sort of what I expected. Thank you for confirming.

[shieldwall101]

Here's the math behind Warden Threat (credit to US forums):

Warden Threat Skills Scale
T = initial threat
4 = threat over time pulses
ToT = threat over time magnitude

This is how to calculate and determine which are the highest threat generating warden gambits in the arsenal. A pulse of ToT is 4 times the aggro generated compared to one auto attack. A warden threat gambit’s threat can be determined using this formula: T + 4(ToT)

Initial threat (T) and threat over time (ToT) is converted to a number using this scale:

Slightly Increased Threat: (0.5)
Moderately Increased Threat: (1)
Increased Threat: (2)
So for example, the threat generated in Precise Blow is worked out like this:

2 + 4(1) = 6 times more aggro than 1 auto attack


Threat Generation Scale (may change with possible future buffs/nerfs):

Brink of Victory: 0.5 + 4(0) = 0.5 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
Piercing Strike: 1 + 4(0) = 1 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
Surety of Death: 1 + 4(0) = 1 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
Spear of Virtue: 2 + 4(0) = 2 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
*Exultation of Battle: 0 + 4(0.5) = 2 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
War Cry: 0.5 + 4(0.5) = 2.5 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
Goad: 1 + 4(0.5) = 3 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
Precise Blow: 2 + 4(1) = 6 times more aggro than 1 auto attack
*Threat up legacies increase these skills by 20% more threat every 2 ranks.

Pre-Volume 2 Book 7’s OP Exultation of Battle
Exultation of Battle: 0 + 4(2) = 8 times more aggro than 1 auto attack

Conclusion:
As you can see from the scale, Precise Blow is the most effective threat skill in single target tanking. The original Exultation of Battle is weaker than Goad, but sustaining a Rank 10-13 legacy will put it through as the best AoE tanking threat skill.