Filikul

[Hirion]

The Basics

Killing Nornúan is not rocket science. I am presenting this guide to make our Monday Rumbles faster and more effecient cutting down on the pre-fight preparation.

The fight is a damage race. Everyone in the raid will be affected by an incurable stacking acid damage-over-time (Gushing Wound) which affects everyone in the room. The magnitude is increased each time Nornúan 'flings spines about the room' - the longer the fight the lesser the chances of survival.

At the same time Nornúan will put a single-target incurable acid damage-over-time (Profuse Wound) on his target every 20 seconds or so when he 'snaps his jaws' at the target. This effect lasts for about 45 seconds, however if the effect is reapplied during that time, it increases in magnitude and resets the countdown. As the healers will already be very occupied managing the damage on the entire raid, we will want to control and limit the number of people getting this second, target-only, DoT, and we want to make sure it only gets reapplied a limited number of times on that person to keep it from becoming too large to handle.

To do this it is important that threat is managed tightly on Nornúan: only the tank should have agro and no one should accidentally steal it. Whenever the bleeding on the tanks passes 750 Nornúan will be grabbed by an off-tank, who will then hold him untill the main-tank's bleed is reduced to zero, whereupon the tank will take him back. Passing him back and forth not only requires coordination between the tank and off tank, it also means that the rest of raid needs to be carefull not stealing Nornúan during that transition. The more people being the target, even for a short while, the more intensive bleeds will the healers need to weather.


Preparation

As the DoT is Acid damage wearing any armour set granting Acid Resistance does help, even if not a requirement. Both the teal Challenge Mode armour set and one of the purple sets grants Acid Resistance if wearing three pieces.

All should be bringing food to help overcome the constant drain on both power and morale. I recommend Vitality food (unless at 600 Vitality with Captain's buff in which case other stat increasing food may be prefered), and regenerative food (waybread or lamb with mint).

Bring a handfull of athelas and celebrant potions. Using these alleviates the pressure on healers and lore-masters (especially if the group setup is challenged on either healing or power-management).

Also consider bringing battle lore scrolls, as a volunteer from each group will be asked to use those.

When we are all present inside use your longterm buffs. Wait with your regenerative food untill all are ready. The raid leader will do a readycheck that all is done with the exception of the regenerative food - after which all will be asked to eat that and we will run in on a count (the door will close when Nornúan is activated and we want no one left outside).


Fight!

Now the race is on!

Timetable

Immediately: One of the tanks (often the off-tanking champion) grabs Nornúan. All classes rush in their longterm debuffs (check the individual class guides below).


20 seconds in:

Minstrels use Song of Aid on which Captains trigger War-cry.
Captains in turn then uses Oathbreaker's Shame.
All use short-time fellowship damage buffs.
All use short-time vulnerabilities on Nornúan.
And everyone else maximize their damage.
At 200.000 morale: Captains change their banners from Victory to Hope.

At 150.000 morale: Minstrels use Fellowship's Heart.

Below 100.000 morale: Captains use In Harm's Way/Last Stand at will and Oathbreaker's Shame if it becomes available again.

Everytime the tank and off-tank announce shifting tanking: Reduce threat for a few seconds not using massive attacks. Once Nornúan has shifted target to the other tank, burglars will use Provoke to build threat faster.


Your Part

Here you can read about pointers for you class specifically.



Your tasks:

Apply Reveal Weakness and keep renewing Counter-defence on Nornúan. It is definately a benefit if these are both traited.
Time using A Small Snag/Quite a Snag on Nornúan at the same time as Oathbreaker's Shame is used early in the fight. Coordinate this with any other burglars in the raid to use them after each other.
Use Provoke a lot, holding back when the tank and off-tank are about to shift, and use it again just after the shift.
Position yourself behind Nornúan for added damage. Curse at those tanking if you have to run back and forth each time they swap.
Either Gambler or Silent Knife traiting recommended - with the exception of the capstone skill only Opportunist and Appraising Eye of the Mischief-Maker traits have any use here (those two, however, are very useful and are recommeded beside either blue or red traits).



Your tasks:

Coordinate Telling and Revealing Mark with the other captain, use Telling if you are the only captain.
Start out with Victory banner and shift to Hope toward the end (at 200k).
20 seconds in, when all the main debuffs have been applied, the minstrels will use Song of Aid, use this to trigger you War-cry; then use Oathbreaker's (coordinate order with the other captain).
Shield-brother a DPS at the beginning, picking the champion off-tank if in the tanking fellowship. Save the first To Arms to use it during the first Oathbreaker's.
Use To Arms, Strength of Will (particular good on a tank/off-tank), Rallying Cry, and War-Cry as often as possible.
Use In Harm's Way/Last Stand if needed - preferably saving it for the last 100k.
Spot heal when needed - if for instance a tank DoT gets out of hand or in the first part of the fight, to keep the minstrels in War-speech longer.



Your tasks:

If off-tank start out by tanking.
If off-tanking coordinate with the main tank to turn Nornúan back and forth between you when the DoT has passed 750, preferably letting it fall back to zero on the one not tanking before tanking again. Make sure the rest of the raid know when you are swapping.
If Improved Rend is traited time armour debuff with the Oathbreaker's.
etc. etc. etc. - can someone who plays a Champion add suggestion below for me to incorporate please.



Your tasks:

Coordinate with the off-tank to turn Nornúan back and forth between you when the DoT has passed 750, preferably letting it fall back to zero on the one not tanking before tanking again. Make sure the rest of the raid know when you are swapping.
etc etc - can some with more knowledge of the class as well as their role in this fight please add some pointers below?



Your tasks:

Use Fire-oil.
Start out in Endurance or Precision. Shift to Strenght at 300k if you havent already. Shift out of again if you are stealing agro, use Beneath Notice and stop attacking - we do not want Nornúan to turn in circles giving too many the DoT.
Hold back on the most damaging attacks just as the tanks are shifting Nornúan.
Use Needfull Haste during the Oathbreaker's.
Try to coordinate Burn Hot and power-sharing with you lore-master - to have what you need, but also not having power wasted on you as you are reduced to 1 power.
If using the blue traitline with Improved Press Onward, it can be an idea to time to use it right after you Burn Hot, to recover from the power loss.



Your tasks:

Bring a bear if you are the only lore-master. Time its first Rend Armour with the Oathbreaker's. If you are two lore-masters either bring two bears and coordinate Armour Rend or bring a raven besides the bear to add the fire vulnerability debuff.
Use Sign of Power:Command, Fire-lore, Ancient Craft, Tarr, and Circle of Warding:Beasts as often as possible - coordinate this with the other lore-master (keeping traited skills in mind). Make sure to time these with the Oathbreaker's in case they cannot be applied constantly. If the only lore-master traiting as Ancient Master will help keeping up the debuffs, otherwise traiting as Master of Nature's Fury + Power and Wisdom/Improves Sign of Power:Command can be recommended if more than one lore-master.
Share and draw power (traiting Power and Wisdom will help).
Spot heal - for instance if a tank's DoT gets out of hand or in the early parts as that will keep the minstrels in War-Speech longer.



Your tasks:

Start out in War-speech. Keep in War-speech as long as you can see that you would still be able to loose it in time to keep anyone from dying. This will usually be sooner for the minstrel in the group of the tanks.
Place yourself in melee range, to add you auto-attacks to the damage.
Use Song of Aid 20 seconds in, when the main debuffs have been applied, use Ballad of War and then apply Call to Greatness on a DPS'er in your group (as Oathbreaker's are then incoming after your Song of Aid).
Use Ballad of War as often as you can in-between heals.
Use Fellowships Heart around 150k - augment it with Lothlorien healing jewelry or Call to Greatness (if it is available again).



Your tasks:

I know very little about specific Runekeeper skills. Can someone in the know elaborate? I presume it is something about using fire damage (if indeed not along as a healer) and to apply fire vulnerability on Nornúan.



Your tasks:

Always:

Use Conviction from time to time. Help the minstrels heal. Be careful with your aggro though.
Use Shield-Piercer (javelin skill) whenever possible, as it debuffs the Turtle, resulting in more damage done as less attacks are blocked. Try to time your first one along with the Oathbreakers of the Captains.

While tanking:

If tanking coordinate with the off-tank to turn Nornúan back and forth between you when the DoT has passed 750, preferably letting it fall back to zero on the one not tanking before tanking again. Make sure the rest of the raid knows when you are swapping.
Keep your self-heals up while you're tanking. If you need to swap aggro, stop using them.
Throw in Conviction and Dance of War often.
Use Precise Blow two or three times when you've received aggro back, to fix it on you again.

While doing DPS:

Try to position yourself behind the Turtle, to improve Wages of Fear.
Use Warden's Triumph often. It has a nice crit and adds 20% to your damage.
You have DoTs, use them!





Please read and comment on the class specific advice as I do not know them all or might have missed useful bits.

[Hirion]

Here is a first, and fast, draft. Comments and ideas more than welcome!

[Rhyaehar]

Loremasters and Captains should coordinate in advance. If you could work out an order in which debuffs are applied, which pet you will have active etcetera. This will save precious waiting time in which people get bored and loose interest. The less the raid leader has to spend talking, the quicker we get it done.

Same goes for multiple of any (de-)buffing class, tanking duo and well, all save hunters really.

[Haleabor]

Has anyone actually ever worked out if the damage over time from Nornie is based on an actual time frame to trigger the next level or whether it's based on his health...or a bit of both?

From my point of view I would suggest that the Healers avoid using the Group Heal (even though it's tempting) until much later in the fight. I would also recommend using the big group heal at around 150K first and try to hold off FH until nearer 120K as this normally sees the effects through almost to victory...

Hal the nub

[Aikanaron]

I've seen a post on the forums where they 6 man him. The tactic they used was as follows. They had 2 captains, minstrel, guard and warden I believe. They all did damage and as soon as they could't keep the healing going because of the DoT they just died one by one and where all rezzed after each other. That way the dot started all over again. So I think it's time based assuming from that.

[Hirion]

I have heard it is connected to the morale of Nornúan, but reckon that might as well because of the time it takes to damage him.

I also heard of people using the defeat-and-rez approach - mainly on the tank.

Anyway I do know some prefer to use Triumphant Spirit and 150k and save the Fellowship's Heart untill later - both seem equally good. And considering that we have had one 1 wipe out of 26 rumbles (or so) by now, it seems to work alright. Of course having captains that can cover the last 50k or so, should it be needed, using IHW/LS also helps.

I am a bit preoccupied the days to come, but when I get the time I'll finish the last part including things individual classes need to know (on traits, on what to consider when and what to coordinate with others - especially those of the same class using overlapping skills and such).

[Rhyaehar]

It's time based. The longer you take, the higher the dot. If you die, it resets.

[Eiyja]

great guide Hirion, I only spotted one mistake.

Poison soups does not help in this instance (as far as I know) since the damage he does is pure acid. Unfortunately there is no soup in the game that helps against acid damage (atleast not yet).

In my opinion everyone should at minimum wear 3 parts of set armour that offers an acid mitigation bonus (3 pieces of the class hardmode armor set and also 3 pieces of the purple class armor set give acid mitigation set bonuses). If one is able to wear 3+3 for double acid mitigation bonus that is even better.

[Eiyja]

I also heard from various sources that in this instance both acid dots are concidered tactical damage.

for this reason I always equip Tolerance for this battle (5% tactical mitigation+some agility and ICMR).

could anyone confirm wether this actually is so or not.. anyone know? I am not 100% sure about this fact, but tolerance has always seemed to work fine for me so far.. input/confirmation appreciated still.

[Hirion]

Which reminds me - I don't know why I still use the Lamb and Mushroom soup and wanted to have someone confirm that it is stupid. :x

[Raedwulf]

I probably shouldn't say this, but to be perfectly honest with you, except for regen food on the CHM & GDN, I've given up on using food as an unnecessary waste. I'm not even sure that regen food on those two has made a great deal of difference. Neither do I change trait sets (except for MNS from full red-line to Smooth Voice & healing), or Virtues ever, for this fight. The GDN lives on a full MT line anyway (because, barring bounties, the only time he's getting used is for MT work at the moment). Raed is usually on a full yellow line including Deathstorm, which technically is pointless since there's only one mob. Rafe does go full healing, but the HNT just shoots things, and Ang goes in on his DN rig of 3B/2R/2Y, which is hardly optimum for the turtle.

You can chew over minor variations on the "perfect" rig, but this is just normal LOTRO fare - if you're any good, it makes precious little difference; if you're not, perfect fluff isn't going to save you (though the RRU group probably will).

[Grimbos]

Champions:

I'm still struggling a bit with the timing of the use of my Ires. Also, it's fairly easy to pick up aggro once you start to really get into your damage routine. The key for a champ off-tanking is to get the timing absolutely right between a forced taunt and the use of rising ire. As the standard cooldown on Rising Ire is longer than the time it takes Nornuan to build up to 750 damage per tick, and Ebbing Ire shares its cooldown with Rising, the timing may be a bit different than the 750 tick if the champ does not hold a -ire cooldown legacy rune. only use your forced taunt if your ire cooldown is down to below 5 seconds. Otherwise, Nornuan will switch back to the previous tank and increase his DoT even more. I've stuffed this bit up twice before, just because I was too eager to grab the aggro off the tank when my ire wasn't ready.

ONLY use your ires when switching from DPS to Tanking and vice versa. If you're the third tank (or second champ) in the group, only use your ebbing ires to dump your own aggro on the tank at the time, unless specifically told by raidleader that you are among the three people who will juggle the aggro.


Stances:
start off in fervour when you have to pick up the first aggro, do a load of damage on the frist oathbreakers. by the time that is over, you'll probably be around tick 500 or so, at which either the aggro will be shuffled to the tank, or you will have to hold out a little longer until tick 750, in which case it may be viable to switch to ardour if you feel you're dropping too fast. only switch on traited Controlled Burn at the second round of Aggro, as the 3.5 minutes will most likely keep you going until pretty much the end of the fight. if it runs out before that, you can go either stanceless or into Ardour to ease the burden on the healers a little.


TL;DR:



If you're not tanking, ebbing ire on every tank shuffle if available.
Talk with "the other tank" beforehand about aggro swapping
Take Aggro First, and keep it until after first oathbreakers while staying in Fervour
Start off with traited Battle Frenzy, then hit a Ferocious Strikes
At tick 750, pass on Aggro to the Guard with Ebbing Ire and LET HIM KNOW YOU WILL!
stay in fervour until the next aggro transfer, then hit traited CB
Don't take aggro when your Rising Ire isn't ready. when it's down to 5 seconds CD, use force taunt and as soon as it's up, hit your Ire.
Keep doing a boatload of damage until your ire is free to transfer it back.
Rinse and Repeat until Nornie is dead
Boast about your uberawesomeness and roll 1 on the nimrodels


just my 0.02, feel free to add/correct where needed.

as for the hunter bit, I'm too much of a noob to say anything useful about that.

[Notiane]

A bit of LM knowledge:

It's a dps race, and LM's dps can be rather significant. Raed stated he doesn't change traits, and I can relate to that comment, but I'm usually traited MoNF (dps) when solo, and often AM (debuff) when raiding. Either of those, and really any mix, will do for this fight, although I may add: I feel most usefull when traited dps.

About the MoNF traits, I think every LM picks the same 4 traits, and then picks a fifth to get ISG slotted. Knowledge of the Past isn't suchs a bad one for this fight (20% chance to give back 55 power on any skill use)

About the AM traits, I feel this line is usefull when being the only LM in the raid. Two LM's can keep the debuffs up 100% by simple coordination (AC most importantly), one can only do that half the time, unless going 5 deep in AM.

Power sharing is the only job worth mentioning in this raid. Be prepared to share with your hunter, burglar, captain, runekeepers. All those classes, normally last on the list, need power to be as effective as they can be, and us LM's are the only ones that can share it. Running this show with all those (not always top notch equipped) alts, you cannot expect them to be 100% self sufficient all the time.

To all other classes: use your power pots! Yes, I'm your battery, I watch blue bars like a minstrel watches green, but sharing (and worse, having to draw) power, stops me dps-ing, and believe me, it takes well equipped dps classes to top me.

[Rhyaehar]

Notiane makes a good point. When it comes to alt Loremasters, it's harder to DPS. I just give up on it when I go in as LM. My LM isn't that bad, she has decent ICPR and such, but Sil's LM is worse off. I'm mainly debuffing when able and drawing/sharing power. I like keeping my group topped up though, as to not get caught with someone almost out. Personal preference I guess.

[Hirion]

Alright I have cleaned up the guide. Both adding the class specific part and removing bits and piece here and there to shorten it down a notch.

I appreciate all the class specific advices here already, and I will have a look at them next and try to incorporate them in the guide, but please look through you various advices and see if it can be shorten down to something alike how I've tried to do the class guides.

I would also appreciate comments on the new material and ideas for improvement.

¤¤o¤¤

And Raedwulf, you are right that nothing makes up for skill and that perfect fluff will save no one. However, weren't you among the people feeling that we spend too much time getting ready for this instance? Making this guide is an effort to make that easier - now people can be asked to read the guide, even in advance, rather than do it 6 times in a row on the evening.

At the same time the Rumbles have turned into an event with a lot of people participating, close to 40 at times, and a guide including even traits and food should do a lot to get that many people on the same page. The moreso as I see most new recruits are told this is a good place to start.

For my part, alts I do not play often are traited for the Rumble specifically. Most others I do not change traits on, if it is not important, or I only change a couple of important traits. If for instance a captain would show up without Oathbreakers (which I often lack having been with the Watcher last) it would matter to the success of the raid. At the end of the day, however, there is no harm in striving for perfection, even when you don't need it to succeed at something (and again to some this is the gateway to our raids).

Our Rumbles seem pretty sturdy, having few wipes, and of course we can weather some missing the best sterling set of traits, or some not using food, but if all did, considering that we have shifting groups and people, it would definately make a difference. Yes, it is people's own choice whether to use food, but if none did, we would be pushing a lot on the healers and power distributers. Personally I'm not stressed about my food use on Rumbles, as it is not that big an issue replendishing it. I know those on many runs might have a bigger drain on resources, but then again we do get more rolls (just as we have more alts with which to earn a living or make consumables).

[Rhyaehar]

For the Warden (feel free to copy/paste to the Warden spoiler thing)


Your tasks:

Always:
Use Conviction from time to time. Help the minstrels heal. Be careful with your aggro though.
Use Shield-Piercer (javelin skill) whenever possible, as it debuffs the Turtle, resulting in more damage done as less attacks are blocked. Try to time your first one along with the Oathbreakers of the Captains.
While tanking:
If tanking coordinate with the off-tank to turn Nornúan back and forth between you when the DoT has passed 750, preferably letting it fall back to zero on the one not tanking before tanking again. Make sure the rest of the raid know when you are swapping.
Keep your self-heals up while you're tanking. If you need to swap aggro, stop using them.
Throw in Conviction and Dance of War often.
Use Precise Blow two or three times when you've received aggro back, to fix it on you again.
While doing DPS:
Try to position yourself behind the Turtle, to improve Wages of Fear.
Use Warden's Triumph often. It has a nice crit and adds 20% to your damage.
You have DoTs, use them!
And above all: You're a bloody Warden! Live up to it!

[Hirion]

Thank you Rhyaehar - to the point and ready for use. Perfect.

[Raedwulf]

And Raedwulf, you are right that nothing makes up for skill and that perfect fluff will save no one. However, weren't you among the people feeling that we spend too much time getting ready for this instance? Making this guide is an effort to make that easier - now people can be asked to read the guide, even in advance, rather than do it 6 times in a row on the evening.

The point I am making is that it is not necessary to get hung up on what's in the guide, not at that level. I don't want a situation where we have an individual using what's in a guide as an excuse to beat up on someone inexperienced. We've had enough of the first sort in RRU who have been convinced of their own rightness, and not everyone has enough experience or confidence in themselves to tell that sort of person where they can take their opinions.

I may ask a player to trait a line, or a specific trait occasionally, but mostly I leave it to the individual to sort themselves out, as you know. As with the discussion elsewhere on the nature of trying to tie down every eventuality with rules, I am wholly in favour of leaving space for common sense & individual choice. So I posted a caveat to the the previous comments! ;)

[Iasselm]

For the Warden (feel free to copy/paste to the Warden spoiler thing)

Keep your self-heals up while you're tanking. If you need to swap aggro, stop using them.

I don't agree with this. When aggro has swapped you still have an active dot on you and your still taking almost the same damage. I don't see why you should heal yourself when you have aggro, but stop healing yourself when you don't have aggro and still take the same amount of damage.

And just to add a few things people should know about wardens:

- We have only one forced taunt and only if we trait for it. It only lasts 5 seconds and therefor doesn't make much difference.
- Warden's do not have an aggrocopy skill like a guardian has (engage). This means that if we die we it's very unlikely we can get aggro again.

I've been in a few turtleraids with my warden where i was asked to 'get aggro now'. We cannot get it instantly, it's just not how warden's threat generation works.

[Hirion]

Eiyja, very thorough work, and any tank wanting to excell at this fight would be well helped reading your post.

However I would prefer you to boil it down to select few and short bullet-points. Yes, I know it will reduce the content and information, but I want the stuff in the guide itself to be short and quickly accessible, giving the would-be-tank (or someone of a different class wanting to understand the roles of other classes in the fight) the possibility and feeling, that they could gather what they need to know in a matter of few minutes.

Too much text will only make it less accessible and quite possibly less read. And this is coming from a bloke who have trouble saying things in few words himself. I'm not saying your guide is not excellent tanking, but just as the other class guides does not cover every nock and cranny, it is important to get people up to speed fast - and then leave the rest to either experience (or digging further down this thread to the splendid posts done by various class experts, if craving for more).

[Eiyja]

alright lets try narrow it down even more;

* Make sure "enable skill target forwarding" is checked in combat options and have the other tank targeted so you can attack Nornie while keeping an eye on the other tank´s debuffs. Feel free to use overpower+twohander! Keep the other tank your primary target but switch to Nornie occationally to check that he stays agroed on the other tank.

* when your tanking buddy reaches 750 dot - switch target to Nornuan and keep him as your primary target from this point and onwards. Let the raid know that you are now going to kick some tortoise butt. Use forced taunt to get the agro. Overpower is no longer a good idea.

* when tanking- Build agro & keep guardians ward up.

* when the other tank lets you know his wound is cleared - turn off auto-attack, stop attacks and turn off guardians threat if you used it for tanking. Take a sip of your coffee and watch your buddy sweat for a change.

* when the other tank is tanking - Keep posting in raidchat how much longer you have on your wound; "30 seconds til wound clear"... "20 seconds"... "10seconds!".... so that the raid knows exactly when you are ready for another round of turtle-smashing. Make absolutely sure to not pull agro before your wound is completely gone! If you get Nornie´s attention too soon you might die from your wound and in worst case even wipe your raid. A guardian traited for high threat and theat-up legacies on LI might be best off not attacking at all.

*when your wound has gone away - finish your coffee, make Nornie hate you again, tank & spank!

* throughout the fight - both tanks need to communicate. Always inform eachother in good time before a tank-switch. It´s never fun to be a tank and not know if the agro was lost by accident or by purpose.

[Raedwulf]

Again I'm going to step in here & be mildly critical. Why do you feel the need to tell a Guardian how to Guardian? The second try is better, but I looked at your first effort and, to be honest, my eyes glazed over. I skimmed it fast & thought "What the hell is this all about? You set up for Main Tank, let the off tank start, take the aggro when he tells you, say when you hit DoT 750, wait for the DoT to expire, take the aggro back; rinse & repeat as required". That really is all there is to it (no, I don't agree about target fwding - keep an eye on your own DoT & give the information out; much easier for most people & is exactly what most people do; you're effectively asking everyone to change their normal practice to suit you). Anything else, a GDN should be able to work out for themself.

For me, an encounter guide, be it instance or raid, should tell you what's where, special attacks & conditions, anything out of the ordinary. What skills do, & general tactics, belong in the class & gameplay guides. Therefore, when I get around to writing the DN guide, you will read about Flagit's special attacks; you will read about the "invisible line" that you need to cross & re-cross; you will also read about the right way to deal with Snarling Overseers, because having Minstrels targetting mobs with their Herald's Hammer is not something they would normally do. Telling you what trait sets to run, or to use Engage, etc, blah, just creates a wall of unnecessary text. When you consider how many players can't manage to read the sign up page on a raid properly, how much of that detailed instruction do you think they're going to actually look at, never mind take in? (Which is why Hirion is trying to reduce things to bullet points)

[Grimbos]

Champion:




If you're not tanking, ebbing ire on every tank shuffle if available.
Talk with "the other tank" beforehand about aggro swapping
Take Aggro First, and keep it until after first oathbreakers while staying in Fervour
Start off with traited Battle Frenzy, then hit a Ferocious Strikes
At tick 750, pass on Aggro to the Guard with Ebbing Ire and LET HIM KNOW YOU WILL!
stay in fervour until the next aggro transfer, then hit traited CB
Don't take aggro when your Rising Ire isn't ready. when it's down to 5 seconds CD, use force taunt and as soon as it's up, hit your Ire.
Keep doing a boatload of damage until your ire is free to transfer it back.
Rinse and Repeat until Nornie is dead
Boast about your uberawesomeness and roll 1 on the nimrodels

Feel free to add/correct where applicable

[Rhyaehar]

@Eiyja: I've deleted the posts you emptied. If you want things deleted, you can use the http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/static/img/buttons/report.gif button (look for it below your username on every post) to report the post. One of the mods can delete it for you :)

I don't agree with this. When aggro has swapped you still have an active dot on you and your still taking almost the same damage. I don't see why you should heal yourself when you have aggro, but stop healing yourself when you don't have aggro and still take the same amount of damage.
Healing generates the most aggro, ours do so over time. While the Turtle is facing away from you, he won't be hitting you. The Minstrel should be able to keep you up during that time. In my not so limited experience as a Warden, I've found that it's best to keep a very low profile. If that means a bit more work for the Minstrel for those few seconds, so be it. Better to have him work harder then to focus the Turtle back on you.

Wardens can generate insane amounts of aggro, even when they're not even trying. I've been in a few Turtle runs while DPS traited. No HoTs, EoB's or PB's used, yet I still managed to grab aggro off the Guard/Champ. Why is that you might ask? Simply because we need to use Warden's Taunt for some skills. While it doesn't do much on it's own, it adds quite a lot to your threat in a longer fight such as the Turtle. Especially when combined with the various DoTs we stack.

Not to negate your contribution, but I'm fairly sure I'm the most experienced Warden in RRU. I've been in dozens of Filikul runs and I've worked out the best strategy for myself. You might have a different approach (which is good!), but I'm trying to get a message across to those who rarely play the Warden; don't over-aggro. It's too easy with a Warden.

I've been in a few turtleraids with my warden where i was asked to 'get aggro now'. We cannot get it instantly, it's just not how warden's threat generation works.
Fortunately, I think most people in RRU know this by now. I've been trying to explain the Warden to all people I play with. This weekend, I'll try and finish up the first draft of the Warden Guide.

[Rhyaehar]

I've split off the Warden aggro discussion to a new topic; http://www.raidsrus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1080

[Eiyja]

Again I'm going to step in here & be mildly critical. Why do you feel the need to tell a Guardian how to Guardian? The second try is better, but I looked at your first effort and, to be honest, my eyes glazed over. I skimmed it fast & thought "What the hell is this all about? You set up for Main Tank, let the off tank start, take the aggro when he tells you, say when you hit DoT 750, wait for the DoT to expire, take the aggro back; rinse & repeat as required". That really is all there is to it (no, I don't agree about target fwding - keep an eye on your own DoT & give the information out; much easier for most people & is exactly what most people do; you're effectively asking everyone to change their normal practice to suit you). Anything else, a GDN should be able to work out for themself.

sadly I think youre right, Im not the best guidewriter out there. I just figured I give it a shot as nobody else yet filled in on the guardian part of this fight in this thread.

sorry if it was too detailed.. Ill leave the guidewriting to the good writers in the future.

thanks for the tip on how to request a delete of your own post, Ill do that now as you have managed to sum up all the important aspects way better than I managed.

I never meant to try to Natzimanage how every guardian must act step by step in this encounter with no room for own creativity. I aimed to give a very detailed description on how I do it myself as I have a lot of experience on how to be a guardian in Filikul. There are reasons for why I wanted to bring up some very detailed things like target forwarding and being over-cautious about threat in the "non-tanking phase". They were meant as detailled pointers. Useful hints, if you will. Nevermind... if I start explaining my thoughts and reasons for why I have a very specific method (yes I actually have a reason for being complicated. when everything runs smoothly in the raid it is not needed but the extra work -the micromanagement planning, if you will - that I suggested is really helpful when things get messed up. I do have a thought behind every suggestion I wrote and it is all based on my own personal experience on what has gone wrong in the past and what I can do to prevent it from going wrong) I figured that if I put it all up there then people can chose to follow it very throughoutly or just skim it through and pick some bits and pieces. Well... I was wrong. I guess nobody will have the eyepower to read the extra lines anyway. I rewrited my original "how to do" twice now and the only response I have gotten this far is; "it is too complicated, too detailed and mostly (some of it only?!?) rubbish". I wore myself out writing about Filikul and now I just lost my enthusiasm to elaborate this issue here any more. And why should I when its not needed, nor wanted. Incase someone is reading this now and is wondering where all the text has gone, most of it is now changed or deleted and I have asked the forum admin to delete the remaining text aswell.

You are right Raed.. the whole tanking process here can be summed up in only two points;

1) Let tank one reach 750 dot, at that point tank two grabs agro.
2) Every time any of the tanks gets cleared of his wound dot he will grab agro and take over tanking.

My original thought was to give a little more than that to those willing to do some reading. I lost that thought now.

[Raedwulf]

Whoa, feller! Less of that. I disagree about the target forwarding; I never said any of what was written rubbish. Sense of proportion & all that. ;) Nor, if I'm being mildly critical (& only mildly, - I said that to try to stop anyone over-reacting), are you the only one I'm being critical of. I was making the point long before you added your thoughts.

Perhaps the problem here is that the Guide should have been separated from the discussion (which is what this has been allowed to turn into).

[Eiyja]

ok thanks for those words. It just felt like all I did was rubbish.. maybe I got too subjective from all that writing and re-writing. And like I said I think you are right, I it can be summed up in only two points if totally shaved down.
Atleast if everything else runs smoothly & without mishaps.

yeah, might be the wrong place for essays as all the other classguides are shorter.

[Raedwulf]

Heh. The class guides tend to be much longer. Not least cos I wrote several of them... ;) It's Raid & Instance guides that can afford to be shorter.

[Eiyja]

hehe yeh I meant to say "classguides for Filikul" or "Filikul instance class guides".

yup

[Hirion]

Been out all day, so haven't been catching up on things and I just want to add that the huge effort and time you had put in what you wrote, but now gone, is certainly very appreciated. Any critical voices should not detract from the appreciation of that dedication to put your advice to text - it was meant merely as a statement that I would prefer something very short for this guide and not that all the work you did was a unwanted.

I had hoped it would remain in the thread for any interested guardian to browse to it; the advice was definately usefull - also in the extended form. It is only the guide itself, the first post, I want short. Partly because I know long texts deter some people from reading it at all, even if directed at them as guardians; partly because I want the class advice to be sufficiently short that anyone, of any class, wanting to know more about the dynamic of the fight, can easily browse through all the classes and briefly get a better overview.

[Derigar/Tarinas]

Took the same approach when i wrote a rift guide a while back - split the boss up into class roles, makes it much quicker to scan and pick out your job quickly. Much like Raed, i'd put emphasis on brevity here as beyond a few points, people entering blind can suffer from information overload and just fail to take in the important points. For example, i'd limit and try to split up information like this:



Champions

If you're not tanking
Avoid taking aggro or excessive ire use to avoid upsetting the balance the tanks have going. If things are go wrong, ebbing ire after the intended tank force taunts the turtle to help build threat fast.

If you're tanking
When your DoT is 750+ and the other tank has no DoT, ebbing ire the aggro over.
When the other tank's DoT is 750+ and you don't have one, either rising ire the aggro over, or force taunt if CD is under 8 seconds or so and follow with rising ire.

If you run into aggro problems
Let the group know, swap to glory and force taunt often to give burglars a chance to help the transfer. If you can't pass the aggro across, again let the group know and stop attacking completely, only using ires when available until the balance is restored.


Minstrels

Song of aid 30 seconds in
Keep ballad of war up as much as possible
Save FH for 150k - if you need it before here, its likely a wipe anyway
Pay attention to the DoT progression to know who will need most heals.



Burglars

RW, snag (as often as possible), CD
provoke on aggro switches to help smooth the transition
Max positional damage at all times

[Notiane]

@ Eiyja, some people do like to read. I saw the original post, and consumed all of it. (my guard is on Eldar, I think, and never passed lvl 20) I use target forwarding all the time, on all classes, for various reasons, but it's not something that belongs in an instance guide. It's not about covering every single move and action.

You may want to look at the "Nimminas rough guide to..." Raed put quite a bit of work into those, and they are excellent, but two brains are better then one. Over time, I added a few thoughts and ideas to the LM and minstrel guides, as others have done as well. Raed is very capable of incorperating any advice he thinks usefull into them, giving credit where it's due. He will not always agree, but also knows his way isn't the only one. I think you may have some info other players (fellow guardians, as well as other classs) may find usefull. Don't give up after one try, things can only get better.

[Eiyja]

Ill keep the good pointers in mind.